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michael_nielsen's profile
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
@michael_nielsen

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michael_nielsen

@michael_nielsen

Searching for the numinous. Co-purveyor of https://quantum.country/ 

San Francisco, CA
michaelnielsen.org
Joined July 2008

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    1. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @michael_nielsen

      All very true. Given the thermodynamics and kinetics, I’m skeptical that even $1B would bring DAC costs below $50/tCO2, but even at $100/tCO2 we‘ll have all the tools we need to cost-effectively solve climate change.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand

      What argument are you referring to?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen

      Not sure I understand the question?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand

      "Given the thermodynamics and kinetics". What's the argument?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen

      Ah: thermodynamics is easier to overcome: you “just” need free power/heat, for example from an Allam cycle plant or SMR. Kinetics = at 450ppm you need large air contractors that are hard to make cheap enough (including structural support) to get too far below $100/tCO2.

      1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
    6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand

      I'm afraid I don't understand either argument. (For calibration in explanation: my background is mainly theoretical physics, with a smattering of other stuff. ) I'd be very interested if you wouldn't mind expanding over a few tweets!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen

      Most common argument against DAC is that CO2 is so diffuse in atmosphere (~420ppm) that it takes way more energy to capture than from flue gas. True enough, but only relevant as long as your DAC cost is dominated by energy requirements.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    8. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand @michael_nielsen

      With a source of waste heat, you can cook the CO2 off a compound that then passively reabsorbs CO2 from the atmosphere, and at that point you just need a source of cheap zero-carbon electricity to run the fans to blow air over it (much like a big air conditioner does).

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    9. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand @michael_nielsen

      The kinetics side is: because the CO2 is so diffuse, and you have to have a contractor that passively reabsorbs CO2, you have to blow a lot of air over the contractor to capture meaningful amounts of CO2.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    10. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand @michael_nielsen

      The contractors can’t be very light, which means you need a big strong structure to hold them in place against gravity, and against the air you’re blowing through/over them. That puts a lower bound on the capital cost of your DAC equipment.

      2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
      michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Aug 15
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      Replying to @scottleibrand

      These sound very design-specific. Are they fundamental arguments about physics, or more heuristic, about particular approaches? (That's what they sound like - much like arguments I used to hear that so-and-so was the limit to transistor density. But maybe I"m misunderstanding?)

      7:28 PM - 15 Aug 2019
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Aug 15
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          Replying to @michael_nielsen @scottleibrand

          (They are, nonetheless, very interesting - I'm taking some time to try to unpack them!)

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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          Replying to @michael_nielsen

          They’re heuristic, but I think they’re general enough to apply to all the best DAC approaches under development, but a quantitative analysis from first principles is beyond my current skills.

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        3. Scott Leibrand‏ @scottleibrand Aug 15
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          Replying to @scottleibrand @michael_nielsen

          That said, I think any approach that bypasses these limits would be qualitatively different enough to not really be DAC. Enhanced weathering, which the Stripe announcement mentions, is one such possibility there.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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