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michael_nielsen's profile
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
@michael_nielsen

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michael_nielsen

@michael_nielsen

Searching for the numinous. Co-purveyor of https://quantum.country/ 

San Francisco, CA
michaelnielsen.org
Joined July 2008

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    michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
    • Report Tweet

    Encouraged by the University of California's widely-discussed decision to push back against Elsevier:https://www.chronicle.com/article/U-of-California-System/245798 …

    4:06 PM - 2 Mar 2019
    • 120 Retweets
    • 382 Likes
    • oliver beige Bonnie Isaac Thani(Айзек Тани) Vollinian Paul Delhanty Tyrrell McAllister Ian Hines Jeffrey Feldberg aseel
    17 replies 120 retweets 382 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        There's been a lot of associated commentary of the form "let's get the evil for-profits out of science". This commentary is well-intentioned, but misdiagnoses the underlying problems.

        2 replies 9 retweets 38 likes
        Show this thread
      3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        My thinking about the role of for-profits started to change after reading John Willinsky's pro-open access book "The Access Principle".

        1 reply 0 retweets 27 likes
        Show this thread
      4. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Willinsky points out that in the second half of the 20th century, not-for-profit society publishers were often remarkably conservative. A new adjacent sub-field of science would open up, they'd respond "not our area", and only very slowly expand the scope of their journals.

        2 replies 0 retweets 24 likes
        Show this thread
      5. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Much of the slack was taken up by for-profit publishers, who were far more willing to provide a space for people developing new sub-fields of science.

        1 reply 0 retweets 25 likes
        Show this thread
      6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        That helped researchers in new sub-fields establish legitimacy, and build out those sub-fields. It was a case where for-profit publishers and the profit motive were serving a broad social good.

        1 reply 0 retweets 27 likes
        Show this thread
      7. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Okay, that's food for thought, but I doubt this specific effect is all that large.

        1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
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      8. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        There's a broader & more important point though: we want a scientific publishing system where someone can start a new journal / repository / database (etc), & if it serves society as a whole better than existing solutions, it will rapidly grow to replace or augment them.

        2 replies 5 retweets 38 likes
        Show this thread
      9. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        For instance: all other things equal we want well-run open access journals to grow & outcompete even well-run closed access journals, since the OA journals provide more social benefit.

        1 reply 2 retweets 21 likes
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      10. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        To the extent journals, databases, and other services remain closed access, we want prices to come down, while maintaining or increasing the rate at which those services improve.

        1 reply 0 retweets 17 likes
        Show this thread
      11. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        We want socially beneficial ideas like preprint repositories, open data archives, open code platforms, and so on, to thrive and grow, and to try out experimental ideas.

        1 reply 2 retweets 26 likes
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      12. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        Ideally, we want a thriving ecosystem of these things, with the best - meaning, the most beneficial for society as a whole (not just the publishers, or just scientists) - rapidly growing and flourishing.

        1 reply 0 retweets 17 likes
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      13. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        There's many systemic reasons this isn't happening at the moment. The market is terribly inefficient. Here's a few structural ways the market is broken.

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
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      14. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Brokenness 1: Perverse incentives. A nice illustrative story from Andrew Odlyzko (https://firstmonday.org/article/view/542/463#IV …. ). In the 1970s Elsevier's journal Nuclear Physics B took over as the top journal in particle physics, from Physical Review D.

        1 reply 1 retweet 18 likes
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      15. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Why? Physical Review D cost far less. But Physical Review D had page charges. Nuclear Physics B dropped their page charges, & authors began to submit more and more of work there. Presto, it became the top journal!pic.twitter.com/ThrJb1zNuI

        1 reply 0 retweets 13 likes
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      16. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        The underlying trouble is that researchers have a lot of power over buying decisions by university libraries, but do not bear the cost of those decisions (the libraries do). So they're price-insensitive. Such a separation of decision-making power from costs leads to bad outcomes

        2 replies 7 retweets 58 likes
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      17. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        Instead of having a market where maximizing revenues also means maximizing social benefit, we have a dreadfully inefficient market where maximizing revenue benefits no-one _except_ the publisher.

        1 reply 2 retweets 24 likes
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      18. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        Brokenness 2: The big deal. Journals used to be sold a la carte. But beginning in 1996 was the era of the era of "the big deal" (e.g. https://poynder.blogspot.com/2012/10/open-access-in-uk-reinventing-big-deal.html … ). Instead of buying journals individually, libraries bought them in big bundles, sometimes of thousands of journals.

        1 reply 2 retweets 16 likes
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      19. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        In many ways this was good. The internet meant that publishing infrastructure could be centralized, giving big publishers economies of scale. Bundling passed some of those economies of scale onto customers.

        1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      20. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        But it had many negative consequences. It meant that journals became a commodity bought in bulk, typically distinguished only by a very imperfect brand / quality marker like impact factor.

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
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      21. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        This was happening at a time when experimental new ideas should have been flourishing. At such a time you don't want things bought in bulk, you want them bought bespoke, based on highly idiosyncratic and individual criteria.

        1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      22. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        And so instead of competing on the basis of amazing new product types, increased product quality, & increased access, publishers instead compete by achieving economies of scale, driving down operating costs while maintaining revenue, improved sales, & maximizing brand lock-in.

        1 reply 0 retweets 20 likes
        Show this thread
      23. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        This is reflected in many ways: most obviously, the many mergers and acquisitions of publishers, giving increased economies of scale. This has the very unfortunate by-product of reducing competition.

        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        Show this thread
      24. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        It also means that many (not all) of the people running scientific publishing are business people who specialize in managing operations (driving down operating costs while maintaining revenue), and in sales and marketing

        1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
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      25. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
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        An example: IIRC Derk Haank, the CEO of Elsevier from 1998-2004 and of Springer, later Springer-Nature, from 2004 to 2017, did his PhD on economies of scale.

        1 reply 0 retweets 17 likes
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      26. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Nothing intrinsically wrong with this. But we're at a time in history where the socially beneficial act isn't driving down operating costs while maintaining revenue. It's producing marvellous new tools, increasing access, etc. Current market structure isn't supporting this well

        2 replies 1 retweet 33 likes
        Show this thread
      27. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        Brokenness 3: The lack of growth models for the best new ideas. An example is the arXiv preprint server. It's one of humanity's great achievements of the past 30 years. Just in economic terms, over the long run it will generate trillions of dollars in social utility for humanity

        2 replies 11 retweets 73 likes
        Show this thread
      28. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        If it captured just a tiny fraction, the arXiv would have a budget of tens or hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Instead, the arXiv has struggled to make budget for much of its existence. It can't grow or innovate the way it should, & changes at a glacial pace.

        3 replies 4 retweets 39 likes
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      29. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        No criticism of the arXiv intended - this is a consequence of a systemic factor: the lack of good growth models that enable great services to grow and change and improve.

        1 reply 0 retweets 29 likes
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      30. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        You see this pattern repeated over and over for a tonne of new tools. Great new tool, no growth model. And so they stagnate and languish.

        1 reply 1 retweet 25 likes
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      31. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Mar 2
        • Report Tweet

        One response is to say "Oh, the NSF [or whoever] should give a lot more funding."

        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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      32. 18 more replies

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