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michael_nielsen's profile
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
@michael_nielsen

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michael_nielsen

@michael_nielsen

Searching for the numinous. Co-purveyor of https://quantum.country/ 

San Francisco, CA
michaelnielsen.org
Joined July 2008

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    1. David Manheim‏ @davidmanheim Jan 10
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @CTZN5 @stalcottsmith @cal_abel

      If we're talking about security of cryptocurrency, no, energy consumption is a cost to be reduced. It's not a positive factor in any way. Computation with no power consumption is physically impossible, but minimizing energy consumption is a goal - not a metric getting gamed.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @davidmanheim @CTZN5 and

      Reversible computing can be used to do computing with (in principle) zero energy consumption.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @michael_nielsen @davidmanheim and

      The proof is usually attributed to a 1973 paper by Bennett, but I particularly like the explanation of Fredkin and Toffoli and their billiard ball model of computing: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/862.16/notes/computation/Fredkin-2002.pdf …

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. David Manheim‏ @davidmanheim Jan 11
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @michael_nielsen @CTZN5 and

      David Manheim Retweeted David Manheim

      Yes, my bad. @anderssandberg and @robinhanson have pointed this out to me, and I should have remembered. I definitely don't understand the physics yet, but thanks for pointing to the paper - it looks like it might be a clearer explanation than I've yet seen. But the point stands:https://twitter.com/davidmanheim/status/1083645585784299520 …

      David Manheim added,

      David Manheim @davidmanheim
      Replying to @CTZN5 @stalcottsmith @cal_abel
      You're gonna lecture me about Goodhart's law? 1) No, in this case the metric functions as a close causal approximation of the goal in the region we're discussing. Divergence in tails is always a problem, (see: regressional goodhart - https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.04585 ) but we aren't there.
      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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      Replying to @davidmanheim @CTZN5 and

      Section 3.6 has a model which is just billiard balls rolling round a table, doing universal computing. No energy consumption at all. It's a very nice model, albeit not physically practical.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen @davidmanheim and

      In general, there will be noise in models like this, and some energy dissipation is required to remove it through error-correction. But there's no in principle lower bound to that noise.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Anders Sandberg‏ @anderssandberg Jan 11
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen @davidmanheim and

      Horizon radiation actually gives a lower bound to temperature. Still, Robin pointed out one can cool further with absurd insulation; am still working out the total thermodynamic cost and optimizing. Would love to see time bounds too - reversible is *slow*.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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      Replying to @anderssandberg @davidmanheim and

      What horizon are you referring to? If you simply mean there's ambient noise due to the rest of the universe, the standard approach is to isolate the system. I'm not sure what the fundamental physical limits will be to that, but (a) they'll be incredibly low; and (b) they seem

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Anders Sandberg‏ @anderssandberg Jan 11
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen @davidmanheim and

      I am thinking of the de Sitter radiation, ~10^-30 K - due to cosmological constant, so in a sense fundamental. Seems unavoidable, but can be isolated at the price of literal parsecs of foil insulators. (thickness due to need to avoid near field couplings)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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      Replying to @anderssandberg @davidmanheim and

      Even without the isolation, kT ~ 10^{-53} Joules is the scale of the energy fluctuations. The noise effects will be pretty small. I guess it's relevant and will require isolation on sufficient computational scale, but far beyond what happens on Earth today.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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      Replying to @michael_nielsen @anderssandberg and

      At a rough guess, all digital computations done by humanity to date are probably on the order of 10^35 operations, maybe 10^40. So you could (in principle) error-correct away all noise due to de Sitter radiation as a cost of < a picojoule.

      3:01 AM - 11 Jan 2019
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
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          Replying to @michael_nielsen @anderssandberg and

          Of course, for more serious computations - after converting, say, a galaxy to reversible computronium - the in-principle energy cost of computation absent isolation might be substantial.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Anders Sandberg‏ @anderssandberg Jan 11
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          Replying to @michael_nielsen @davidmanheim and

          Yes, for "everyday" Kardashev level I, II & III computation this is not much of a problem. When we get to estimates of the total computation ability of accessible universe, subyoctojoule costs start to pile up. Affects grand strategy for some utility functions a lot.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Robin Hanson‏Verified account @robinhanson Jan 11
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @michael_nielsen @anderssandberg and

          I think that is incorrect as a physics calculation.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Jan 11
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @robinhanson @anderssandberg and

          It's not intended as a calculation, just a ballpark estimate. A detailed calculation will depend on quite a few things, especially the depth of the computation and the details of any error-correction (i.e., cooling) strategy.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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