I find that really reductive. I don’t think even Hobbes held that civilization was totally unnatural (though he perhaps came close). But a lot of the eighteenth century was about a reaction against Hobbes’ dark view of human nature.
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Butler, Hume, Smith, Hutcheson and Pufendorf all emphasized the natural social nature of humanity and believed that such social nature could be leveraged to create bonds of society.
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This was the kind of philosophy which did much to inspire the founders, as Gordon Wood strongly emphasized in The Radicalism of the American Revolution.
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I am going by memory here but I was also struck in your conversation by how strongly you identified Christianity with this sort of Hobbesian view (it would have surprised Hobbes). Fallenness is a theme in Christianity but so is humanity’ natural goodness and natural sociality.
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Think here of the Yahwhist creation story. Butler emphasized this in his moral philosophy, which was delivered as sermons.
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Rereading this thread it sounds more negative than I meant for it to, I did very much enjoy this episode and the podcast in general.
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I’m a fan of Goldberg but the opening pages in which he mocks religious believers, despite saying he is not, are disappointing and gives the work a certain superficiality. Politics against nature. Lots of folks have thought otherwise but are dismissed at the outset.
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I would disagree. I believe it’s the death of American civilization and has nothing to do with liberal democracy being unnatural. Rather than failure to uphold those principles. Fully separating church and state. Also tax cuts today instead of investing in the next generation
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But one thing you didn’t talk about is the way that capitalist liberal democracy draws on tribalism in subtle ways in advertising. How far does it use (in anything from perfumes to sports cars) ‘tribal’ instincts - and is that harmful?
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Good podcast
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I do not believe in his unnatural theory. I see no reason to claim some human organizations are natural and others are not.
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Liberal Democracy brought us corruption by statists progressives who illegally ratified the 16th Amendment. The income tax was deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Company, 157 U.S. 429 (1895), affirmed on rehearing, 158 U.S. 601 (1895).
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So it is an optimistic tale then...
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The modern Hobbesian "conservative" is really pretty damn close to advocating for Game of Thrones-style social structures when you get right down to it.
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