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marcan42's profile
Hector Martin
Hector Martin
Hector Martin
@marcan42

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Hector Martin

@marcan42

If it ain't broke, I'll fix it! I'm porting Linux to Apple Silicon Macs at @AsahiLinux. http://patreon.com/marcan  | http://github.com/sponsors/marcan 

Tokyo, Japan
marcan.st
Joined May 2009

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    1. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @Techmoan

      Read https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html … (grep for 120dB if you must). In practice, 16 bits is more than enough for any practical situation.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @marcan42 @Techmoan

      Had a look to the video, and it cheats a bit :). It does increase SNR *only* on a reduced zone of the spectrum (and increases it in other zones). Thus it is effectively reducing overall noise when using e.g. A frequency weighting (to assimilate to human hearing).

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    3. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @marcan42 @Techmoan

      But it is not correct (or at least not complete) just to say "it increases SNR beyond 96 dB". It only does it on a fraction of the spectrum (the fraction interesting to human hearing).

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    4. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @Techmoan

      That is only half of it. The first demo shows that a tone at < 96dB is still above the noise floor even with flat quantization noise. Shaped dither just improves things further. SNR is already > 96 on a band basis, which the article I linked later goes further into.

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    5. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @marcan42 @Techmoan

      I haven't read it yet, but you have to integrate the floor noise throughout the entire band. Calculating SNR against the noise floor is wrong. Will read and come back 😁

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    6. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @Techmoan

      Ah, but we aren't talking about SNR, we're talking about dynamic range. Not quite the same thing ;). Music isn't a broadband noise source, so you get some extra perceptual headroom for free.

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    7. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @marcan42 @Techmoan

      Let's sum it up, to see if we agree: 16 bit w/out oversampling allow for about 96 dB SNR. Using dithering you can have more than 96 dB SNR by taking advance of human hearing characteristics (an 'A' frequency weighting filter can be used for computations).

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    8. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @marcan42 @Techmoan

      Other than that, you can use oversampling to gain more SNR, but that requires increasing Fs beyond nyquist.

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    9. doragasu‏ @doragasu 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @marcan42 @Techmoan

      You have to be careful though, the lower the Fs is, the more stringent requirements will be put both in the anti-aliasing and the reconstruction filters. Both must be analog and will not be the ideal brickwall filter.

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    10. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @doragasu @Techmoan

      Fs only needs to be strictly above 2*Nyquist for whatever you want to encode. Oversampling is a practical requirement for ADCs and DACs as an *implementation detail*. The end result is still a black box that takes analog in and spits 48kHz out.

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      Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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      Replying to @marcan42 @doragasu @Techmoan

      The fact that the *practical* way to make a near-ideal ADC or DAC is by resampling/filtering digitally first is irrelevant. That does not change the fact that 44.1kHz/48kHz digital audio is and always will be sufficient to encode all the information.

      10:27 PM - 17 Dec 2017
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        2. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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          Replying to @marcan42 @doragasu @Techmoan

          This has nothing to do with dynamic range. Dithering is required in order to have *consistent* quantization noise (a flat white noise floor) and to be able to encode the content with zero distortion. Dithering per se is not a perceptual hack.

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        3. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 17 Dec 2017
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          Replying to @marcan42 @doragasu @Techmoan

          Our perception of audio is in the frequency domain, not the time domain. This means that even though, say, a 1kHz tone at -100dB is *below* the broadband noise floor of 96dB, it is *above* the noise floor in a narrow band around its frequency.

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