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marcan42's profile
Hector Martin
Hector Martin
Hector Martin
@marcan42

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Hector Martin

@marcan42

If it ain't broke, I'll fix it! I'm porting Linux to Apple Silicon Macs at @AsahiLinux. http://patreon.com/marcan  | http://github.com/sponsors/marcan 

Tokyo, Japan
marcan.st
Joined May 2009

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    1. Ian Coldwater  📦 💥‏ @IanColdwater 4 Apr 2020
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      I am a person who specializes in cloud native infrastructure, not a COBOL programmer, but if you're like "lol why don't banks and governments migrate to modern systems?!" I have some news for you about the security of bleeding edge systems

      65 replies 274 retweets 2,194 likes
      Show this thread
    2. configurator (Dor Kleiman)  🏳️‍🌈‏ @theconfigurator 4 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @IanColdwater

      What makes you think the COBOL systems are secure?

      3 replies 1 retweet 30 likes
    3. Ian Coldwater  📦 💥‏ @IanColdwater 4 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @theconfigurator

      Oh, I am not saying that I'm saying that ancient turtles or new turtles, it's turtles all the way down

      2 replies 19 retweets 541 likes
    4. configurator (Dor Kleiman)  🏳️‍🌈‏ @theconfigurator 4 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @IanColdwater

      And yet that's not a good argument for spending millions on supporting those barely functional systems.

      10 replies 0 retweets 19 likes
    5. Lycha  👉 supporter of BLM‏ @lychaxo 4 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

      Some of them were stringently tested by the government in the 80s. There used to be standards for computer security designed by military. That kind of standardization and testing just doesn't tend to happen anymore except for a very few niche companies.

      2 replies 3 retweets 105 likes
    6. Lycha  👉 supporter of BLM‏ @lychaxo 4 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @lychaxo @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

      Modern computer programming is too much of a moving target. And, in the name of speed, we sacrifice a lot of security-first principles. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltdown_(security_vulnerability) … for example. Compare to AS/400 architecture, where CPU are designed less efficiently in order to be secure.

      3 replies 4 retweets 101 likes
    7. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @lychaxo @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

      AS/400 isn't a CPU architecture though, it uses machine independent bytecode (like Java, Android dex, LLVM IR in iOS apps, and other similar modern versions). The actual CPUs used by AS/400 have been POWER for a while and certainly are vulnerable to Spectre subsets.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    8. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @marcan42 @lychaxo and

      By the way, z/OS and friends are lacking many modern security mitigations. I wrote a CTF for z/OS USS that was a trivial stack overflow, which would've instantly been caught by stack cookies on any modern system, and made harder to exploit by ASLR.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    9. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @marcan42 @lychaxo and

      As far as I can tell, any idea that all that big iron stuff is "secure" is a bunch of wishful thinking. Nobody is auditing those systems from the POV of modern exploitation because they're so niche and proprietary, so nobody is pumping out the CVEs. It's security by obscurity.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    10. Lycha  👉 supporter of BLM‏ @lychaxo 5 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @marcan42 @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

      Security thru obscurity might be a fair assessment. I don't trust software design for big iron to be secure, but I had read a whitepaper ages ago describing how AS/400 was designed for extremely high reliability and to discourage low-level side-channel attacks. Can't find it now

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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      Replying to @lychaxo @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

      Nobody *knew* about modern side channel attacks back then. Any security claims from old systems are unlikely to hold up to modern scrutiny (and unlikely to apply to modern hardware for those platforms; everyone is doing the same stuff). Now reliability, yeah, IBM does that well.

      12:28 PM - 5 Apr 2020
      • 5 Likes
      • Riley S. Faelan zdriver Lycha 👉 supporter of BLM configurator (Dor Kleiman) 🏳️‍🌈 黒田 東彦 stan
      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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          Replying to @marcan42 @lychaxo and

          But really, there's just no way to design a modern multi-user system without side channels. It's just not possible due to complexity, and if you actually seriously tried you would absolutely destroy performance (and still have a bunch). Big iron isn't and never was an exception.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Lycha  👉 supporter of BLM‏ @lychaxo 5 Apr 2020
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          Replying to @marcan42 @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

          There's a fascinating story of the Multics team evaluating how important fixing side channel attacks (altho a bit different than modern ones) really was in s complex, multiuser system. Worth a read - http://Multicians.org/timing-chn.html 

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Lycha  👉 supporter of BLM‏ @lychaxo 5 Apr 2020
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          Replying to @marcan42 @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

          True that speculative execution timing attacks wouldn't have been considered, considering speculative execution was still in its early days in the 1970s =)

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Hector Martin‏ @marcan42 5 Apr 2020
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          Replying to @lychaxo @theconfigurator @IanColdwater

          Yes, the simpler your system, the fewer side channels it will have, kind of by definition :-) But nothing stays simple as time moves on. Modern big iron has layers and layers of complexity, arguably even more than your typical x86 box.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation

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