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levity's profile
Lawrus
Lawrus
Lawrus
@levity

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Lawrus

@levity

wondering about everything • coding & cat-herding at @makerdao • existence precedes essence—or does it? ☯

Santa Cruz
Joined March 2007

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    1. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      Then they can begin to see their frame breaking and a view into a larger conceptual world. But with rationalists, you have to go the other direction. So, do you use rationality to show them the limits of rationality? Do you use prayer and faith to help break the frame? /

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      The issue, afaiks, is that for both of those types, they aren't "reasonable" in the sense you describe. They _like_ to have one way to see the world, to evaluate truth. It seems natural to them that the world should be so. There's one reality, and one way to describe it best.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      ^ Your concept of "eternalism." I have a couple friends who are like this and it's been really interesting trying to find the words that can lead them out of that box. So far I'm failing hard. Do you think that there is a poster-child case for this rationalist deconversion?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Lawrus‏ @levity 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      If their curiosity & commitment to truth is strong enough, they’ll learn to see the limitations themselves. If it isn’t, you won’t ever find the words. You’re in the gray area where you’re hoping their existing motivation + their social commitment to you tips the scale.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Lawrus‏ @levity 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @levity @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      There isn’t going to be any objectively effective poster child. Those who are not ready to change would just interpret them as having failed (i.e. as green, not yellow; Wilber’s pre/trans fallacy)

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @levity @Meaningness

      It feels like there _could be_. For example, when you do the 9 dot problem, you wouldn't expect to find someone who sticks so hard to his assumptions that he's like, "No, you can never draw outside the dots. Those are the rules."

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @levity @Meaningness

      With religious types, there isn't a system to their thinking you can challenge, so the deconversion is often about lived experience and how their beliefs and experiences differ. But with rationalists, I keep hoping that there's a systematic way to show the limits, bc they /

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @levity @Meaningness

      like systems and many of them would acknowledge the limits of a system if you could show it to them systematically. So where's the 9 dot problem that shows the limits of rationality?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Lawrus‏ @levity 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      What’s the equivalent of the “no, you can’t draw outside the lines” that you encounter with your rationalist friends? Perhaps precisely defining the step they’re unwilling to take is the beginning of a systematic approach.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @levity @Meaningness

      Great question. Perhaps it has to do with a picture of the universe as a place where everything can be, uh, rationed out and measured precisely.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Lawrus‏ @levity 21 Mar 2019
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      Replying to @spearofsolomon @Meaningness

      And is it that all of the evidence supports this picture as actually true? Or is this a picture they prefer because it provides some reassuring certainty? :)

      11:39 AM - 21 Mar 2019
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        1. Nathan Spears‏ @spearofsolomon 21 Mar 2019
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          Replying to @levity @Meaningness

          They have faith that whatever it can't explain now, it will be able to explain eventually. :)

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