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leftoblique's profile
Dana Fried
Dana Fried
Dana Fried
@leftoblique

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Dana Fried

@leftoblique

Lead, @googlechrome Desktop UI Feature Team ★ Skating for @JCRD_Derby as Hydraulic Tess ★ Co-momming with @Hall4Six ★ she/her

Seattle, WA
Joined October 2011

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    Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7

    You ever notice how programming languages are the only languages we expect people to learn to write without first teaching them to read?

    11:02 AM - 7 Apr 2019
    • 953 Retweets
    • 4,503 Likes
    • Jessica Tai Walt Stoneburner Kevin Griffin Clare Lauriane Kayungu-N Siim Põder Daniel ☀ Victor Agreda Jr Ben
    99 replies 953 retweets 4,503 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7

        "Here's a computer and a poorly-written tutorial with no real-world examples. Git gud."

        4 replies 23 retweets 280 likes
        Show this thread
      3. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7

        Frankly, it's a miracle anyone learns to code.

        5 replies 10 retweets 257 likes
        Show this thread
      4. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7

        Dana Fried Retweeted Benji Xie

        Evidently we weren't the fist to ask this particular question:https://twitter.com/BenjiXie/status/1115000167134941184?s=19 …

        Dana Fried added,

        Benji Xie @BenjiXie
        Replying to @leftoblique
        Yep my colleagues at @UW_iSchool and @uwcse noticed! We've been researching, rethinking, & improving CS instruction by teaching learners to read code before writing it. Here's a post describing one of the recent papers we published on this approach: https://medium.com/bits-and-behavior/improving-intro-cs-by-explicitly-teaching-programming-skills-20641f920fa9 …
        1 reply 8 retweets 125 likes
        Show this thread
      5. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7

        Dana Fried Retweeted Sayamindu Dasgupta

        Some great responses in this thread!https://twitter.com/sayamindu/status/1115061677169491968?s=19 …

        Dana Fried added,

        Sayamindu Dasgupta @sayamindu
        Replying to @sayamindu @leftoblique
        We found some evidence that children using @scratch are more likely to use certain programming constructs if they have seen the source code of or have remixed projects that use those constructs in the first place. https://medium.com/mit-media-lab/studying-the-relationship-between-remixing-learning-c1df54c302df …
        2 replies 2 retweets 62 likes
        Show this thread
      6. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8

        Wow This Really Blew Up™ I don't have a SoundCloud, so instead I think I'm just gonna mute the thread. Continue to have awesome discussions!

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
        Show this thread
      7. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8

        Actually, why don't you donate to my wife's political campaign to help bring housing security to Seattle? (And if you're a Seattle resident, shoot a signature her way too - the form is on the same page!)http://www.hall4six.com/vouchers 

        0 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
        Show this thread
      8. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2.  👑harri 👑‏ @hay_guise Apr 7
        Replying to @leftoblique

        perl actually can't be read!

        3 replies 1 retweet 51 likes
      3. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7
        Replying to @hay_guise

        You have a point.

        0 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Colin McMillen‏ @mcmillen Apr 7
        Replying to @leftoblique

        This is interesting to me because growing up I did not have a computer at home, but I did have a library with some books about BASIC and I would look at their source code and mentally figure out what was going on. (And yeah, the line numbers helped a lot for that.)

        2 replies 0 retweets 40 likes
      3. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 7
        Replying to @mcmillen

        I mentioned this in another reply but I wonder if small open-source projects are the modern equivalent of that kind of resource.

        3 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
      4. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker Apr 7
        Replying to @leftoblique @mcmillen

        I think there's too little FOSS that's both small and interesting. I try to make musl interesting that way though.

        2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      5. 1 more reply
      1. New conversation
      2. 9 out of 10 Aevas agree:‏ @ladyaeva Apr 8
        Replying to @leftoblique

        granted it is a long time since I first learned to program, and an even longer time since I learned to write, but I feel like these are not at all comparable things?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8
        Replying to @ladyaeva

        Disagree. Or at least, I think for some people it is like language and for other's it's more like learning game mechanics. Our system is, I would contend, largely set up to teach the latter approach. And as in games, even our ability to do that well varies.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      4. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8
        Replying to @leftoblique @ladyaeva

        We know a lot of people learn by seeing examples, just like some learn only by doing, and others by being instructed. If we only focus on one mode of learning then only those with that as a primary mode (or those with enough self-direction to seek out other examples) will learn.

        1 reply 1 retweet 3 likes
      5. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8
        Replying to @leftoblique @ladyaeva

        I would also contend that for reasons which may be intrinsic, environmental, or both, favoring a specific mode of instruction in computing tends to favor certain demographics over others.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      6. 9 out of 10 Aevas agree:‏ @ladyaeva Apr 8
        Replying to @leftoblique

        I see programming as having two critical parts to it, technical aspects of design and the underlying machine, and communicating with other programmers. The former is fussing with schematics, and the later happens over existing languages (eg English), even in code.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Dana Fried‏ @leftoblique Apr 8
        Replying to @ladyaeva

        I can guarantee that's not how many programmers - especially newer programmers - think about it.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      8. Ryan Alban‏ @RyanAlban1 Apr 8
        Replying to @leftoblique @ladyaeva

        One thing I've noticed with newer programmers is that a lot of them conflate learning a programming language with learning to program, possibly because the two are often taught at the same time. I don't think programming can be taught by reading, but programming *languages* can.

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      9. Ryan Alban‏ @RyanAlban1 Apr 8
        Replying to @RyanAlban1 @leftoblique @ladyaeva

        In fact, I think the real reason we teach new programmers to write code before we teach them to read it because we are trying to teach them to *program* and not the programming language itself. I'm not sure how I'd teach someone who couldn't program JUST a programming language.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      10. 11 more replies

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