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kilovh's profile
Tzvi
Tzvi
Tzvi
@kilovh

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Tzvi

@kilovh

Fishing in the sea of faith with a net of doubts. Without G-d, there is no world. With G-d, there is no world.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
notajungle.com
Joined August 2013

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    1. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      The problem is actually even worse than it first appears, because a close reading of the Torah contradicts BOTH of these numbers, to wit: (A) Among the souls entering Egypt with Jacob was Kehat, Jacob's grandson, who lives (Exodus 6:18) 133 years; (B) Amran, son of Kehat, lives

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    2. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      (per verse 20) 137 years; (C) Moses, son of Amram, experiences the Exodus at age 80. (7:7) Even if you add all three lives together you only get 350 years.

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    3. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      Indeed, in the Rabbinic exegesis of scripture, the Midrash, we find that the children of Israel were only in Egypt 210 years So which was it? 400 years, 430 years, or 210 years?

      1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
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    4. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      In order to understand all this, we should look closely at Genesis 15:13, where G-d is telling Abraham what will happen to his descendants.pic.twitter.com/AFESdmGxRI

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    5. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      There are really three things this verse foretells, beginning with Abraham's offspring (that is, the earliest cutoff is Isaac) -- (1) "Shall be strangers" (2) "Shall be enslaved" (3) "and oppressed"

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    6. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      Now, the wandering as strangers began already with the patriarchs themselves; Jacob "dwelt in the land of his father's sojournings" (Gen. 37:1) and tells Pharaoh that his life was one of wandering. Slavery, however, begins only with the death of Joseph. (Exodus 1:8)

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    7. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      And we could posit that the true oppression of the slavery was only felt when Pharaoh ordered the newborn male children to be drowned in the Nile. If we read the verse this way, our math discrepancy is solved: 400 years begin when Isaac is born, and last until the Exodus.

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    8. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      How so? Isaac is 60 when he has Jacob, Jacob was 130 when he went to Egypt, yielding 190 -- plus the 210 years they were in Egypt, equals 400. You even get 430 if you consider some years of Abraham's life (he also wandered), since this revelation may have come to him at 70,

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    9. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      30 years before Isaac is born. (This last bit, about part of the life of Abraham counting, was sufficiently tricky that, when writing the Septuagint, among the miraculous simultaneous alterations for Ptolmey was making the verse read "in Egypt and other countries.")

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    10. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      So in summary, this soltuion says 430 years from when G-d appears to Abraham, 400 years from the birth of Isaac, 210 years in Egypt. The Ramban and the Abarbanel read a little differently. They say that the 430 comes about at the end of Israel's time in Egypt.

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      Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

      That is, 210 years were divinely ALLOTTED for bondage in Egypt, but it was actually extended to 240 for the sins of the Children of Israel, who forgot even the commandment of circumcision and worshipped idols in Egypt. That G-d had promised 400 but delivered 430 is not a problem

      5:38 AM - 7 Nov 2018
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      • FireStarter Jon Wallenberger Alexander 🐢🏈 Bozorg
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        2. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          since, like many deivine promises, this one was obviously conditional on the human being holding up their side of the bargain. just as G-d increased the wanderings of Israel in the desert to 40 years, he increased the slavery in Egypt to 240.

          1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
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        3. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          Tzvi Retweeted Tzvi

          (I messed up the thread -- continues here:)https://twitter.com/kilovh/status/1060165241479270401 …

          Tzvi added,

          Tzvi @kilovh
          The Ralbag (Gersonides) finds a different way to make the numbers work: The four hundred years begin from the birth of Jacob (preferable since he wandered while Isaac didn't really) and G-d HASTENED the Egyptian redemption by 30 years on account of its severity.
          Show this thread
          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          The Ralbag (Gersonides) finds a different way to make the numbers work: The four hundred years begin from the birth of Jacob (preferable since he wandered while Isaac didn't really) and G-d HASTENED the Egyptian redemption by 30 years on account of its severity.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        3. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          The Ibn Ezra explains it the first way, and finds the extra 30 years by counting from when Abraham left Ur, which was 30 years prior to Isaac's birth,

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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        4. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          The only question remaing is that if G-d wished to tell Abraham how long the Egyptian exile would be, why did he do it with one obscure number (400) and not parse the various time periods contained therein?

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        5. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          There are various reasons. One simple explanation is that if the longer exiles (the Egyptian and the Roman, which has lasted a very long time so far) were given exact numbers by G-d, it may lead to despair. The ambiguity makes it easier to await redemption every day.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        6. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          Another explanation is that these exiles really had not defined time limit, and G-d awaits the prayers for redemption and for our return back to Him in holiness. As it says in the Talmud in Tractate Sanhedrin, the Messiah would come "today, if only you listened to his voice."

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        7. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          Knowing a specific time limit on an exile implies that we do not have to change our behavior, do not have to improve, since G-d is duty-bound to redeem us at the appointed time.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
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        8. Tzvi‏ @kilovh Nov 7

          The ambiguity is more in keeping with the purpose of exile, which is to find light from darkness, to be pushed to discover greater good through opposition and challenge. So yeah, they could do math. /thread

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        9. End of conversation

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