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jtdudman's profile
Dud(man)Lab
Dud(man)Lab
Dud(man)Lab
@jtdudman

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Dud(man)Lab

@jtdudman

husband, father, neuroscientist, senior group leader at janelia, former pg for bad intramural basketball teams

Ashburn, VA
dudmanlab.org
Joined October 2012

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    1. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      DA neurons are active right before movement - this has tempted many to conclude it’s obligate to move. We know that this isn’t strictly true (movements are present in naive mice even though DA neurons were inhibited), but maybe DA activity was necessary once rewards were around..

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    2. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      We tested this directly w/ an approach we think is important - calibrated stimulation. In the same cells we measured normal responses to rewards and movements and then played back the same pattern of activity (and a number of supraphysiological patterns) to see what happened…pic.twitter.com/whMhPyaojU

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    3. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      What happened? zilch. When we played back calibrated stimulation no movement - we needed ~5x activity to get a little movement. From this we conclude that DA activity can reflect anticipation associated with movement without being obligate for or sufficient for movement itself.

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    4. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      In naive mice DA is inhibited by movement then once rewards are available DA is excited by the ~same movement. This is clearly an aspect of learning, but only an aspect. What about learning to use information from the environment to anticipate when rewards are available?

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    5. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      Mice can also smell the presence of a sweetened water reward sitting in front of their nose and we also can give them a cue about when reward would be available. We played a brief tone (half a second) to let them know that a reward would appear 1 second later.

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    6. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      The mice learned to use these sensory cues to anticipate reward and guide when to act. After a few hundred such experiences, mice would start licking and moving after the cue - they knew something good was coming.pic.twitter.com/0Sdy92a3Es

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    7. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      DA activity also started to reflect anticipation triggered by sensory cues. This is well known, but still remarkable. A sensory stim provokes no response. After learning that same stim elicits a robust response in DA neurons - and when played back _is_ sufficient for learning.pic.twitter.com/kCdtx9qTDv

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    8. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      It has been proposed for 20 yrs that DA activity reflects a scalar variable- reward expectation in simple learning (using a cue to anticipate reward). Here, with our novel dataset we saw 2 distinct components - one associated with movements and one associated with sensory cuespic.twitter.com/1Jk76K7VPa

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    9. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      A very surprising, albeit subtle, point and one we had never questioned previously, was that the DA response to a sensory cue and reward delivery were both a function of training extent, but changed independently. This directly contradicts a core premise of influential models.pic.twitter.com/65Rjou0WOG

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    10. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      Moreover, the sensory cue and movement related components have distinct time courses (mvmt-associated appears in first ~10 trials, sensory cue-associated over hundreds of trials) and also sum - a classic demonstration of independent inputs to a neuron.pic.twitter.com/e8VvPyLctd

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      Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

      Finally, once behavior has fully adapted to the task and will not change further (overtrained) - only then do we observe the canonical neural correlate of reward prediction error (RPE). In other words, after learning is complete and as a consequence of learning.pic.twitter.com/2Ye5xTbrG0

      7:26 AM - 17 Oct 2018
      • 5 Retweets
      • 14 Likes
      • Carlos deCabodelaVeg Thomas Miconi Alicia Izquierdo Pamela Day Ramiro Eduardo RR Ryan Cho Hessam Akhlaghpour Derek Lizzie Manning
      3 replies 5 retweets 14 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          That RPE correlates are a consequence of learning is quite surprising. It has been argued that RPE signals in DA neurons are a cause of learning. A key point: we replicate observed RPE correlates _after_ learning and we replicate that DA stim is sufficient for reinforcement.

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        3. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          Our dataset rules out the now canonical interpretation of how a temporal difference like computations could be implemented to give rise to DA RPE correlates (e.g. Suri & Schultz 1999) providing strong evidence that RPE correlates do not arise from an error computation. But…

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        4. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          An implementation consistent with temporal integration of sensory cue-associated and action initiation-associated inputs + Hebbian plasticity can explain DA correlates both on the timescale of learning (hours/days) and of synaptic integration (millisec) http://dudmanlab.org/html/learnda.html …pic.twitter.com/5eNQtU4TR2

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        5. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          Thus, we conclude that the timing of action is a critical determinant of reward prediction correlates in the activity of DA neurons during novel associative learning. This has important implications for the learning rules that underly DA-dependent learning.

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        6. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          In particular, it suggests that correlation-like signals in the activity of mDA neurons may allow a novice animal to rapidly learn from its successes - namely, when an appetitive action is initiated in response to a predictive cue - akin to Hebbian conceptualizations of learning.

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        7. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          The independence of cue-related and reward-delivery responses + the fact that DA responses lag after learning provides support for the notion that changes in DA activity are a consequence of learning in other brain circuits. Eg, amygdala https://goo.gl/KKxT3S 

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        8. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 17 Oct 2018

          Onward... how is learning in distributed brain circuits coordinated to control behavior. Two things we propose from this study: Novel learning (ie before overtraining coordinates multiple circuits) and a detailed examination of behavior are key to focus on in future work. Fin.

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        9. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Thomas Kash‏ @superkash 22 Oct 2018
          Replying to @jtdudman @A_Izquierdo1

          this is really fascinating work, Josh!

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dud(man)Lab‏ @jtdudman 22 Oct 2018
          Replying to @superkash @A_Izquierdo1

          Thanks. It’s a real pleasure working with @fluketc

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Adam J Calhoun‏Verified account @neuroecology 17 Oct 2018
          Replying to @jtdudman

          is the implication that you don't get RPE before because otherwise you can't actually predict the reward, or something else?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Luke Coddington‏ @fluketc 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @neuroecology @jtdudman

          Something else. We see behav. evidence of prediction starting in session 2, quite robust by session 4-8 (Fig1c,d, Fig4). So prediction is there, it just doesn't directly modulate DA responses. Prediction has to modulate behavior in major ways before effects are seen in DA

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Benjamin Saunders‏ @BenSaunders 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @fluketc @neuroecology @jtdudman

          I love this. In our DA photometry recordings in recent paper we don't see clear cue responses until a few days in, but behavior is starting to emerge in the first day or two. And only after behavior is well established does the cue-evoked signal correlate with it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Luke Coddington‏ @fluketc 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @BenSaunders @neuroecology @jtdudman

          What do you think this says about incentive salience models? I've thought they would predict a very strong correlation between cue signals and the behavior that follows, but we definitely don't see that on a trial-by-trial basis, and we also see the dissociation you describe

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Luke Coddington‏ @fluketc 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @fluketc @BenSaunders and

          (Not to be totally negative about everything, the context is that a number of our other observations might fit with incentive salience pretty well)

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Benjamin Saunders‏ @BenSaunders 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @fluketc @neuroecology @jtdudman

          Yeah. Been thinking about this and I don't have a good answer/conclusion. I tend to think all of these ideas are partly true, & 1 issue is that new versus well learned actions engage dopamine differently - which theoretical conceptions usually ignore.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Benjamin Saunders‏ @BenSaunders 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @BenSaunders @fluketc and

          I'm also interested in redoing some of those opto conditioning studies with terminal recordings. But yeah it's clear that incentive salience attribution lags behavioral acquisition. Though also not all conditioned behaviors necessarily reflect incentive salience.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Benjamin Saunders‏ @BenSaunders 18 Oct 2018
          Replying to @BenSaunders @fluketc and

          For example simple orienting to DA predictive cues emerges early, before gross locomotion and specific actions like cue-directed approach. The emergence of approach specifically correlates better w emergence of cue-evoked signal. Need to get a better handle on that relationship

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. End of conversation

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