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joeerl's profile
Joe Armstrong
Joe Armstrong
Joe Armstrong
@joeerl

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Joe Armstrong

@joeerl

Writes programs and books. Invents things. Gives talks. Fixes broken software. Hobbies: Stroking cats, playing piano, grumbling, reading, thinking.

Sweden
joearms.github.com
Joined June 2009

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    Joe Armstrong‏ @joeerl 6 Nov 2018

    If you move a file you can break an application. This means the ‘mv’ operation is deeply flawed. Think about it :-)

    1:58 AM - 6 Nov 2018
    • 12 Retweets
    • 77 Likes
    • New Year, New G Matt Might Kenji Rikitake Tamas Rev EC Cliste Briste Chráinne Chráite Graham Alexander Trull Daniel Schildt
    18 replies 12 retweets 77 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Shalabh Chaturvedi‏ @chatur_shalabh 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        If your write to a file you can break an application. Perhaps the filesystem notion itself is deeply flawed. We're set up to have soft links (application->file) that are trivial to break, with no safety or warning whatsoever.

        3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      3. Don't eat the‏ @YellowSnow60 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @chatur_shalabh @joeerl

        If you write to a file, you can also fix a misbehaving application, so .....

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Shalabh Chaturvedi‏ @chatur_shalabh 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @YellowSnow60 @joeerl

        The problem is built-in fragility in this design. Perhaps the built-in state should be encapsulated and only allow safe/consistent modifications.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Joe Armstrong‏ @joeerl 10 Nov 2018
        Replying to @chatur_shalabh @YellowSnow60

        Yes

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. End of conversation
      1. ed‏ @eddw4rd0 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        No, the application is deeply flawed.

        0 replies 0 retweets 18 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Mark Burton‏ @markb139 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        It doesn't have to be that way. If all files had a guuid and directory structures and human names were only used by humans, you could move files as much as you liked.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Tim Chase‏ @gumnos 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @markb139 @joeerl

        /me moves GUID-named file to a USB drive, then unplugs it.

        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
      4. Mark Burton‏ @markb139 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @gumnos @joeerl

        OS would know its been moved to external storage which also has a guid.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Tim Chase‏ @gumnos 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @markb139 @joeerl

        but doesn't prevent app-breakage 😉

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. Mark Burton‏ @markb139 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @gumnos @joeerl

        True. I'll have to think a bit more :)

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      7.  📶‏ @coreload 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @markb139 @gumnos @joeerl

        Content-based addressing could be the germ of a solution

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      8. End of conversation
      1. Stephan Seidt‏ @seidtgeist 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        My favorite memory: “Renaming things with micro services”. It’s a book designed to be burned

        0 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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      1. The Slough House‏ @SlauHaus 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        Surely, with great permissions come great responsibility?

        0 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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      1. Mark Wilcox‏ @mwilcox 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        what if you move the app too

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      1. abhishek manocha‏ @koolak82 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        Side effects are a necessity :)

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      1. Marco Aurélio da Silva‏ @marcoonroad 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        [mv] is the composition of [cp] together with [rm] on source file. filesystems are ACL-based systems instead of OCap-based ones, so Ambient Authority and Confused Deputies are the rule of thumb here. it's quite easy for an attacker to perform Rights Amplification & break things

        0 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
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      1. Tamas Rev‏ @tamasrev 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        Oh, a koan!

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. ...‏ @Transcendenting 20 Dec 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        If you delete an application you can break the application. This means that the 'rm' operation is deeply flawed. If you smash your computer with a fire extinguisher, you can break an application. This means that fire extinguishers are deeply flawed. Think about it :-)

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. (identity [:pankaj :λ])‏ @pankajdoharey 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        Actually on OSX if you observe, even if you 'mv' a video file currently being played it will continue to play till the end. So in a way maybe the other filesystems are deeply flawed?

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. 0xDEAD  🏴‏ @arturovm 6 Nov 2018
        Replying to @joeerl

        This is a hard problem. I agree with most of what you say about file systems, but I also believe files are an essential abstraction for general purpose computing. How do we keep computing accesible for everyone while eliminating the quintessential abstraction of portable data?

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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