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hugohanoi's profile
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
@hugohanoi

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Hugo Nguyen

@hugohanoi

I chain, therefore I am ⛓️

Joined April 2012

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    Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

    Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Naval

    1/ This is an interesting idea. Leaving aside the issue of whether this would actually stop the rise of altcoins, I doubt that in-protocol incentives for future development would be feasible.https://twitter.com/naval/status/985018594252742656 …

    Hugo Nguyen added,

    Naval @naval
    Most coins wouldn’t exist if Bitcoin and Ethereum had incentives for future development built into the core protocol.
    Show this thread
    1:33 AM - 14 Apr 2018
    • 6 Retweets
    • 41 Likes
    • Z Sar Haribhakti deans_7 Matthew unconfirmed Hasu Zane Pocock CryptDeFiat ⚡ Dan Zuller
    3 replies 6 retweets 41 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        2/ The reason Bitcoin’s incentive scheme works is that it’s actually pretty simple. *Note: this does not imply that the Game Theory aspect of Bitcoin is simple. Complex dynamics could develop from very simple rules (e.g.: think of Go/Chess).

        1 reply 1 retweet 12 likes
        Show this thread
      3. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        3/ Concretely, in Bitcoin, the goal of mining can be: (a) mathematically defined - miners get paid for finding a hash that is <= current difficulty target (b) computationally verifiable - miners’ work is verifiable by *anyone*, cheaply

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
        Show this thread
      4. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        4/ The fact that the goal can be mathematically defined & computationally verifiable means that the incentive scheme can be automated: a reward will be paid out whenever said goal is met. This simple logic thus can be embedded directly into Bitcoin’s consensus code.

        1 reply 2 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      5. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        5/ In contrast, it’s often impossible to convert “development goals” into something that satisfy the above 2 conditions.

        1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
        Show this thread
      6. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        6/ An example of a development goal: scale the network 2X without degrading network security or Bitcoin’s essential attributes.

        1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        Show this thread
      7. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        7/ How would you translate this scaling requirement into concrete, mathematical terms? As we have seen, “network security” or “Bitcoin’s essential attributes” can mean very different things to different people. It is also hard to verify and verify cheaply.

        1 reply 3 retweets 11 likes
        Show this thread
      8. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        8/ In effect, this means that development goals/roadmap will ultimately require *subjective human inputs*. Who’s to create development goals? Who’s to define judging criteria? This is all fuzzy stuff that cannot be automated away / embedded into the protocol.

        1 reply 2 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        9/ TL;DR: In-protocol incentives only work if the goal can be mathematically defined & computationally verifiable.

        1 reply 6 retweets 23 likes
        Show this thread
      10. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        10/ One more food for thought: there is another aspect to incentives & that is whether designed incentives can truly bring the intended effects. There’s a long history of human-made incentives that ended up producing undesirable outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive …

        1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
        Show this thread
      11. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        11/ In Bitcoin’s case, it’s clear how block rewards (and later transaction fees) help secure the network. The effort spent chasing the rewards is directly linked to network security. 100%.

        1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        Show this thread
      12. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Tuur Demeester

        12/ But it’s not always so simple. An example of a perverse incentive is Ethereum Casper’s concept of “inactivity leak”. In trying to incentivize nodes to stay online, you might inadvertently *disincentivize* them instead.https://twitter.com/TuurDemeester/status/981720971223629825 …

        Hugo Nguyen added,

        “Casper introduces the problematic concept of ‘inactivity leak’, where nodes get penalized for the mere crime of going offline. Whether you’re intentionally going offline to cause harm or not, it doesn’t matter. This is a super perverse rule because a) it introduces a new vulnerability where an attacker can DDOS…” from “Proof-of-Stake, Private Keys Attacks and Unforgeable Costliness the Unsung Hero” by Hugo Nguyen.
        Tuur Demeester @TuurDemeester
        “Proof-of-Stake, Private Keys Attacks and Unforgeable Costliness the Unsung Hero” — @hugohanoi https://medium.com/@hugonguyen/proof-of-stake-private-keys-attacks-and-unforgeable-costliness-the-unsung-hero-5caca70b01cb#---0-560 … pic.twitter.com/yHn0WbtVOC
        Show this thread
        1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
        Show this thread
      13. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        13/ A similar argument can be made for any protocol that fancies the idea of embedding governance into the protocol & have stake holders vote on protocol changes. Democracy will never produce a good engineering system. It’s akin to asking the mob on how to design a space shuttle.

        6 replies 3 retweets 16 likes
        Show this thread
      14. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14

        14/ The more complex the rules, the harder it is to ensure that the arising dynamics match exactly what you want, or not have unintended effects.

        0 replies 2 retweets 12 likes
        Show this thread
      15. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @hugohanoi

        Naval Retweeted Naval

        Agreed. I can’t come up with a decentralized, on-chain solution for incenting developers either:https://twitter.com/naval/status/985020476744400896?s=21 …

        Naval added,

        Naval @naval
        Replying to @jimmysong
        Well ETH and BTC are worth more than the rest put together. And have more liquidity. It’s just unfortunate that all future funding goes to miners and none to new developers. But perhaps it’s impossible to distribute to new developers in a decentralized way.
        1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
      3. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @naval @hugohanoi

        What I don’t buy is the argument that good developers don’t need to be paid (not saying you’re making it, others are). It’s an AND not an OR. Anyone designing an incentive system should acknowledge Free Rider and Tragedy of the Commons.

        1 reply 1 retweet 14 likes
      4. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @naval @hugohanoi

        What we have right now is suboptimal incentive allocation - all the rewards are going to founders, early investors and miners. None to late developers. Which leads to more independent blockchains that would exist otherwise.

        1 reply 5 retweets 18 likes
      5. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @naval @hugohanoi

        But there seems to be no decentralized, on-chain solution to the problem. But the market will test BTC and ETH by creating “innovation incentives.” BTC has a weak implicit one (own some BTC). ETH has a slightly stronger one (ERC 20).

        2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
      6. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @naval @hugohanoi

        But in this Cambrian Coin Explosion, we will see coins that use inflation funding and centralized grants to fund engineering for a while, and then switch to decentralized models.

        1 reply 2 retweets 6 likes
      7. Naval‏ @naval Apr 14
        Replying to @naval @hugohanoi

        For the non-private pure-SoV use case, there’s a good argument that Bitcoin is done, should stay simple and decentralized. For the “Global Computing Platform” use case, further innovation is likely needed. So ongoing incentives for development matter.

        2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
      8. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14
        Replying to @naval

        I mostly agree. Lack of top dev talents is def a big problem & like you said, Tragedy of the Commons. Maybe the next best solution is for the biggest companies in the space to step up & raise a common, neutral fund to attract protocol developers. Give them a stake in the coin.

        3 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
      9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Apr 14
        Replying to @hugohanoi @naval

        I'm kinda skeptical on the decentralized computing idea for smart contracts- there’re quite a few knowledgable folks that believe that what’s important for smart contracts is less about "computing" than contract verifiability. Easier to scale too.

        1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
      10. 4 more replies

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