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hugohanoi's profile
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
@hugohanoi

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Hugo Nguyen

@hugohanoi

I chain, therefore I am ⛓️

Joined April 2012

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    1. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      17/ The only way PoS can reduce energy cost while keeping the same properties, is by showing that PoW is truly “wasteful.” That PoW doesn’t contribute anything to ledger security.

      5 replies 8 retweets 87 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      18/ But PoW absolutely does contribute to ledger security, 100% ! Every single hash operation in PoW contributes to ledger security. In fact, PoW makes ledger security highly quantifiable & easy to calculate. Cost of rewriting X blocks == cost of mining X blocks.

      5 replies 10 retweets 121 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      19/ Since PoS removes billions of dollars of the mining that secures the ledger, it must follow that a PoS blockchain is billions of dollars less secure. Again, Conservation of Energy.

      5 replies 14 retweets 95 likes
      Show this thread
    4. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      20/ So, the TL;DR is that PoS cannot work unless it violates the laws of physics: getting security without spending any energy.

      9 replies 20 retweets 112 likes
      Show this thread
    5. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      21/ Let’s look at PoS from another angle. Concretely, PoS aims to achieve immutability via the idea of “punishment.”

      1 reply 7 retweets 65 likes
      Show this thread
    6. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      22/ The idea is that if you misbehave, you pay a heavy penalty. PoS people hope this threat will deter bad actors from attacking. However, this has a fatal flaw.

      1 reply 8 retweets 73 likes
      Show this thread
    7. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      23/ Threat of punishment works in real life, because in real life, there is only one version of reality.

      2 replies 10 retweets 86 likes
      Show this thread
    8. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      24/ This does not translate to a distributed ledger. Each fork of a ledger is an alternate version of reality.

      1 reply 7 retweets 93 likes
      Show this thread
    9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      25/ Punishing bad actors in your version of reality works only if attackers choose to remain in your reality.

      4 replies 14 retweets 117 likes
      Show this thread
    10. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      26/ But they don’t have to. By rewriting history, an attacker can wipe the slate clean. In an attacker’s version of reality, she’s the honest actor.

      3 replies 7 retweets 81 likes
      Show this thread
      Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

      27/ PoS can only punish bad actors *after the fact*. By the time you get to punish somebody, it might already be too late.

      2:36 AM - 12 Jan 2018
      • 18 Retweets
      • 138 Likes
      • Abraham Thomas Thibaut ₿reezy Sumanth ⚡ Mitchell Bradley AvY Matias ⚡️ Capt. Blackheart, US Space Force Sirbu
      4 replies 18 retweets 138 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          28/ This is drastically different from PoW mining. In PoW mining, attackers have to pay upfront cost in order to mine a single block. In order to attack, you have to pay first. Period.

          8 replies 26 retweets 183 likes
          Show this thread
        3. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          29/ Whether an attacker has to pay the cost *upfront* or *after-the-fact*, makes a huge difference. The difference is billions of dollars in security.

          4 replies 13 retweets 126 likes
          Show this thread
        4. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          30/ PoS might be mildly interesting without being as secure as PoW. But I don’t really see the point. If you compromise on ledger security, you compromise on what makes blockchains special in the first place.

          3 replies 13 retweets 133 likes
          Show this thread
        5. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          31/ PoS weaker security is also evidenced by its need to require a lot more “social consensus” (which is just a fancy word for manual human intervention) than PoW.

          5 replies 13 retweets 125 likes
          Show this thread
        6. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          32/PoS plans to rely on “making it the user's responsibility to authenticate the latest state out of band. They can do this by asking their friends, block explorers, businesses that they interact with, etc. for a recent block hash in the chain that they see as the canonical one.”

          1 reply 4 retweets 43 likes
          Show this thread
        7. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          33/ Vitalik’s beloved defense against this type of weakness is that PoW also require social consensus. Well, DUH. *All man-made systems require some degree of social consensus*, there is no exception.

          2 replies 5 retweets 57 likes
          Show this thread
        8. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          34/ The political system, the transportation system, the banking system, the dollar, Bitcoin, etc. All these systems require buy-in from humans collectively as a group, in order for them to work. Man-made systems would break down immediately without social consensus.

          2 replies 8 retweets 61 likes
          Show this thread
        9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          35/ To argue that since PoW needs social consensus, it’s OK for PoS to need social consensus, is a downright stupid argument. What matters is not whether you need social consensus, but *how much*?

          1 reply 9 retweets 71 likes
          Show this thread
        10. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          36/ The less social consensus / human intervention a system needs, the stronger & more secure it is. The goal is to move as much as possible to *machine consensus*- to eliminate human biases & errors.

          3 replies 20 retweets 104 likes
          Show this thread
        11. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          37/ PoW makes machine-level consensus a trivial problem. When there is a fork, a machine just has to pick the one with the most accumulated PoW. Yes, Bitcoin still needs some social consensus to get the system up & running. But after that, it’s mostly on auto-pilot.

          1 reply 7 retweets 63 likes
          Show this thread
        12. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          38/ In contrast, in PoS you would continuously need social consensus in order to resolve forks. The reliance on social consensus is magnitudes bigger than PoW.

          3 replies 9 retweets 60 likes
          Show this thread
        13. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          39/ In conclusion, there is just no comparison between PoW & PoS. It’s like a NBA team vs a highschool team.

          6 replies 7 retweets 73 likes
          Show this thread
        14. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12

          40/ PoW is a system designed to withstand the worst, PoS involves obfuscated setups in order to hide its fatal weaknesses. One is a resilient platform for the future, the other is a toy.

          19 replies 18 retweets 129 likes
          Show this thread
        15. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 13

          Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Hugo Nguyen

          41/https://twitter.com/hugohanoi/status/952254443365347328 …

          Hugo Nguyen added,

          Hugo Nguyen @hugohanoi
          Replying to @TuurDemeester
          Thanks Tuur. To add since so many people seem to be missing the point... “What about tech innovations? Cars vs horses? LED vs. lightbulb? Aren’t those examples of using less energy to achieve the same goal?” No because in those cases there are exploitable inefficiencies.
          17 replies 7 retweets 41 likes
          Show this thread
        16. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 15

          Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Hugo Nguyen

          42/ Continued debate with Vitalikhttps://twitter.com/hugohanoi/status/952712190808608768 …

          Hugo Nguyen added,

          Hugo Nguyen @hugohanoi
          1/ Ehhh, I addressed directly Casper’s handwaving attitude regarding “weak subjectivity” or the reliance on social consensus in my thread. @VitalikButerin believes this kind of weakness is trivial. But it’s not. https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/952548219988226049 …
          Show this thread
          1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
          Show this thread
        17. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 27

          Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Hugo Nguyen

          43/https://twitter.com/hugohanoi/status/953346191152033792 …

          Hugo Nguyen added,

          Hugo Nguyen @hugohanoi
          1/ Proof-of-stake cryptocurrencies cannot be trustless.
          Show this thread
          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
          Show this thread
        18. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 27

          Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Hugo Nguyen

          44/ A deep dive into PoW & extending the energy argumenthttps://twitter.com/hugohanoi/status/957091071745433601 …

          Hugo Nguyen added,

          Hugo Nguyen @hugohanoi
          1/ The anatomy of Proof-of-Work
          Show this thread
          0 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
          Show this thread
        19. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Louis Marais‏ @maraisl_ Jan 12
          Replying to @hugohanoi

          Master nodes and nodes in a PoS chain still requires energy. It is however more distributed than PoW as most people can have a computer but not neccesarily an antminer. Aren't everyone invested in a chain supposed to benefit from it's use? I believe there is space for both.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 12
          Replying to @maraisl_

          I’m sure the amount of energy PoS spends on security is not literally zero. At the same time, it is orders of magnitude lower than PoW. Hence orders of magnitude less secure.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Louis Marais‏ @maraisl_ Jan 12
          Replying to @hugohanoi

          PoW is indeed effective, but less efficient. I like PoW - especially ASIC resistant PoW. I however believe that both could be compromised by collusion or massive investment. Sorry I'm not an expert on the subject.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. 1 more reply

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