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hugohanoi's profile
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
Hugo Nguyen
@hugohanoi

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Hugo Nguyen

@hugohanoi

I chain, therefore I am ⛓️

Joined April 2012

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    1. Jimmy Song (송재준)‏ @jimmysong Jan 6

      Jimmy Song (송재준) Retweeted Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]

      Very clever! SPV wallets can have real time data on this.https://twitter.com/SatoshiLite/status/949746681662205952 …

      Jimmy Song (송재준) added,

      Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]Verified account @SatoshiLite
      1/ Technical info: Use 5 of the version bits (fee_bits) to specify min fee rate min_fee_rate = 2^fee_bits (in litoshi) Soft fork enforces that all transaction in that block has a fee rate higher than min_fee_rate and that fee_bits is set to highest possible. https://twitter.com/SatoshiLite/status/949599651874795520 …
      Show this thread
      13 replies 28 retweets 180 likes
    2. David A. Harding‏ @hrdng Jan 6
      Replying to @jimmysong

      Seems to me like it's totally broken by CPFP, where a low-feerate tx is paid for by a high-feerate descendant. According to @SatoshiLite's logic, the block-header-minfeerate will be reporting the low-freerate tx as the floor even though it's not representative of actual policy.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Jimmy Song (송재준)‏ @jimmysong Jan 6
      Replying to @hrdng @SatoshiLite

      I think he proposed median or something to make that work. I like the idea of embedding fee data into headers, though =)

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. David A. Harding‏ @hrdng Jan 6
      Replying to @jimmysong @SatoshiLite

      I too like the idea of giving SPV clients the tools to make effective fee estimates in a truly decentralized manner, but this seems to me like a very difficult problem given that the miners generating the data are also the people who would benefit from manipulating it.

      2 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    5. Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]‏Verified account @SatoshiLite Jan 6
      Replying to @hrdng @jimmysong

      Worst case is it doesn't work. Not worse than today IMO.

      1 reply 1 retweet 11 likes
    6. David A. Harding‏ @hrdng Jan 6
      Replying to @SatoshiLite @jimmysong

      The worst case is that SPV users use this for fee estimation, miners manipulate it, and then those users pay more in fees---potentially much more---than they would've if they used a centralized fee estimation tool. That seems worse than today, at least from the user perspective.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    7. Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]‏Verified account @SatoshiLite Jan 6
      Replying to @hrdng @jimmysong

      Miners can manipulate the fees higher by actually not mine low fees transactions. This is something they can do today. This proposal doesn't make this "attack" worse. A competitive decentralized miner environment will make this less of an issue.

      1 reply 3 retweets 25 likes
    8. David A. Harding‏ @hrdng Jan 6
      Replying to @SatoshiLite @jimmysong

      I think it does make the attack worse compared to existing fee estimation algorithms deployed on Bitcoin. Worked example in attached screenshot.pic.twitter.com/2koqKCN7Tz

      2 replies 2 retweets 9 likes
    9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
      Replying to @hrdng @SatoshiLite @jimmysong

      1/ In order to manipulate min feerate for each block, you have to make that block a *single-transaction block*, meaning you'd be giving up tons of fees by excluding other txs. And you need to do that consistently for at least 51 out of 100 blocks. That costs a lot of money.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
      Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

      2/ That’s kinda like Antpool mining empty blocks, but doing it more consistently & on a much larger scale. If mining cartel can truly do this we have a bigger problem than fees: the miners have completely taken over the network & can impose artificial block limit on the users.

      12:51 PM - 7 Jan 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          3/ 51 single-transaction blocks out of 100 means that the total available block space would be effectively cut in half.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          4/ But the kicker is that the benefits of this manipulation (which again costs a lot of money) would go directly to the your mining competitors.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          5/ Since the other 49 blocks would be mined by other miners, not you. You’ll be spending a lot of money just to line your competitors’s pockets and weaken your own cartel. Makes no sense.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          6/ This attack, if carried out, can also be easily spotted on the blockchain.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          Hugo Nguyen Retweeted Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]

          7/ It also can be easily mitigated, as Charlie has pointed out, as long as SPV clients don’t use the same rule for estimating fee. Min feerate is only a fee signal, it’s up to each SPV client how to interpret it.https://twitter.com/SatoshiLite/status/949802676056834048 …

          Hugo Nguyen added,

          Charlie Lee [LTC ⚡]Verified account @SatoshiLite
          Replying to @hrdng @jimmysong
          But you are assuming every SPV client follows the same rule. That would be silly as it becomes easily exploited as you are showing. I would guess some SPV clients use last 200 blocks, some use last 1000, and some use last 100 but fallback to 1000 if fees seem high, etc.
          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @hrdng and

          8/ In conclusion, I think this attack is unrealistic, easily spotted, and easily mitigated against.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. David A. Harding‏ @hrdng Jan 7
          Replying to @hugohanoi @SatoshiLite @jimmysong

          I think it's unlikely, but not unrealistic. My main point was that I think the risk of this attack, or more clever variants, means that SPV clients would be better off using existing semi-centralized fee estimation services rather than the miner-curated minimum block fee info.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Hugo Nguyen‏ @hugohanoi Jan 7
          Replying to @hrdng @SatoshiLite @jimmysong

          I would argue that it’s easier to manipulate these centralized fee estimation services than to manipulate min feerate consistently over X blocks- where X is a large number :-)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 2 more replies

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