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gwern's profile
𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫
𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫
𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫
@gwern

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𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫

@gwern

Writer, independent researcher, Internet besserwisser. 𝘞𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘴𝘩𝘪 𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘶! Links: https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/ 

Present day. Present time. (Ahahaha!)
gwern.net
Joined November 2008

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    1. Jack Clark‏ @jackclarkSF Apr 5

      Jack Clark Retweeted Maria Luciana Axente  📴

      "Self-regulation is not going to work. Do you think that voluntary taxation works? It doesn’t." - Yoshua Bengiohttps://twitter.com/maria_axente/status/1114141060308045824 …

      Jack Clark added,

      Maria Luciana Axente  📴 @maria_axente
      #YoshuaBengio spoke with @nature about his biggest fears- irresponsible use of the tech he helped create, particularly in military (killer drones & surveillance) He also likened self-regulation to self-taxation, governments have impose regulation. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00505-2?mod=djemAIPro … pic.twitter.com/l5WDINQReF
      4 replies 31 retweets 117 likes
    2. 𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫‏ @gwern Apr 5
      Replying to @jackclarkSF

      That's an interesting comparison mostly because it's so wrong. Even excluding the many historical examples of self-assessment tax mechanisms, the US income tax was completely reliant on self-reporting & taxpayer honesty early on, and the IRS is so gutted now it might as well be.

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    3. Jack Clark‏ @jackclarkSF Apr 5
      Replying to @gwern

      I believe he is referring to the idea of voluntary corporate tax - which is a bit of a fanciful metaphor but I think makes a reasonable point.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. 𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫‏ @gwern Apr 5
      Replying to @jackclarkSF

      What are corporate charitable donations but a self-assessed voluntary tax? Or donations by rich people in general (who are of course the beneficiaries of corporations)? There have always been many motivations besides merely avoiding jail...

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    5. Jack Clark‏ @jackclarkSF Apr 5
      Replying to @gwern

      I see the points you're making, but feel like we're talking about the margins of something: Yoshua's point is that corporations aren't going to be great at being responsible with AI and government regs can force responsibility. I think we both agree with that point?

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. 𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫‏ @gwern Apr 5
      Replying to @jackclarkSF

      It's not a marginal thing, though. That was the entire US income tax. Not a small thing. It was all self-reported. It worked. And US business leaders used to pride themselves on public-spiritedness and often proposed regulations restricting business or served on commissions.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Jack Clark‏ @jackclarkSF Apr 5
      Replying to @gwern

      Do you believe that in the current climate businesses will voluntarily self-regulate to a level that future historians would deem both responsible and sufficient?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. 𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫‏ @gwern Apr 5
      Replying to @jackclarkSF

      It doesn't use to be like this and so it probably won't be like this at some point again. Self-regulation can work, contra Bengio, and we know this because it has. But it won't work if everyone claims it's absurd to imagine it ever working. That's how coordination problems work.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Apr 5
      Replying to @gwern @jackclarkSF

      Can you name a specific date and place where self-regulation worked, and a source? I'd like to know about this. The examples I know are usually very small. (Ostrom has plenty in this vein, but they cap out at 15,000 people.)

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
      𝔊𝔴𝔢𝔯𝔫‏ @gwern Apr 5
      Replying to @michael_nielsen @jackclarkSF

      I already did. And self-regulation is as pervasive as water: whenever an industry or group or person does something beyond the legal minimum. Which is almost everything. Think 'high trust societies' vs 'low trust' ones.

      9:17 AM - 5 Apr 2019
      • 4 Likes
      • krish Alexey Guzey Garrett M. Petersen Milan Griffes
      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Frank Lantz‏ @flantz Apr 5
          Replying to @gwern @michael_nielsen @jackclarkSF

          What makes this problem especially complex is that the deepest, most important, and most powerful constraints on behavior are norms that we don’t articulate publicly, much less specify precisely and enforce by rule of law.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Frank Lantz‏ @flantz Apr 5
          Replying to @flantz @gwern and

          In a way, the problem of how to regulate AI safety is the AI safety problem itself, writ large.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation
        1. DSnow‏ @snowdenwink Apr 5
          Replying to @gwern @michael_nielsen @jackclarkSF

          I agree so common, short selling is in fact self-regulation.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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