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gwern's profile
gwern
gwern
gwern
@gwern

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gwern

@gwern

Writer, independent researcher, Internet besserwisser. 𝘞𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘴𝘩𝘪 𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘶! Links: https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/ 

Present day. Present time. (Ahahaha!)
gwern.net
Joined November 2008

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    1. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12

      Anna Gát Retweeted Rahul Desai ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      From a modern innovation POV, Christianity is REMARKABLE. (1) It iterated around all the issues that limit global spread (celibacy vs needing to raise army, kingdom of heaven vs physical empire), could spread as IDEA (this is true for Buddhism too). (2) It integrated existinghttps://twitter.com/RDesai01/status/1084160975870267392 …

      Anna Gát added,

      Rahul Desai ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ @RDesai01
      Replying to @TheAnnaGat
      It's a Trojan horse for mind control of opposing tribes.
      4 replies 3 retweets 18 likes
      Show this thread
    2. gwern‏ @gwern Jan 12
      Replying to @TheAnnaGat

      Neither Protestants nor Eastern Orthodox are celibate, and there's more of them than there are Catholics.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
      Replying to @gwern

      That is correct. However neither would exist without the original spread of Christianity which was during a violent, low-order, low-norm era. I should have nevertheless specified *early* Christianity. Thanks for the note!

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. gwern‏ @gwern Jan 12
      Replying to @TheAnnaGat

      Early Christianity wasn't celibate either. Catholicism only imposed clerical celibacy centuries later.

      5 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
      Replying to @gwern

      And do you assume it has nothing to do with its spread/success? I always found it a great shortcut to solve problems arising from its ubiquitousness - for creating a separate noncompetitive social class, appearing (often correctly) very useful, etc.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. gwern‏ @gwern Jan 12
      Replying to @TheAnnaGat

      The burden of proof is on anyone picking on a specific feature and attributing success to it. Celibacy was never a major feature of Christianity, so how could it be responsible? To point out the obvious, Islam didn't have celibacy and spread even faster.

      1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
    7. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
      Replying to @gwern

      Sure, but what I said wasn't that it's a major feature but a key innovation *if* you want to spread w/o violence, appear noncompetitive. I looked it up and celibacy precedes Catholicism (although was made official by Catholics indeed). And 3rd/4th century counts as "early" imo.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      gwern‏ @gwern Jan 12
      Replying to @TheAnnaGat

      Still not a distinguishing feature. Islam has spread without violence in many places & times, and Christianity has spread with violence in many places & times. What's 'key' about it? And that definition of 'early' is post-Constantine, even...

      1:39 PM - 12 Jan 2019
      • 1 Retweet
      • 6 Likes
      • Tequehead Alexey Guzey @reiver ⊼ (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Thuongvu zac José Luis Ricón (Artir)
      1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @gwern

          Yes - and thanks for these points! Here was my reasoning (which indeed led to a very eurocentric theory) - celibacy survives into medieval Europe via Eastern/antique examples (prophets, Vespas, etc) as one off in Roman Catholicism (then dominant) - it is costly: uncomfortable 1/

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @TheAnnaGat @gwern

          for practitioners, hard to reinforce, may deter talented people from joining, doesn't work when low population and no one to convert etc. - so I looked at circumstance and trade-off: why did it make sense to practice it nevertheless? - came to two possiblities/statements - 2/

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @TheAnnaGat @gwern

          was a good way of employing males when no other options? Also: Church itself can work in a more centralised way in a very heterogenous European environment. Also: it is a powerful nonviolent signal when spreading a nonviolent religious ideal. Separate from society - unarmed 3/

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @TheAnnaGat @gwern

          and noncompetitive religious stratum - celibacy did become a norm within the religion at a time of its spreading in very violent, low-[property]-law era/place (cf La Flèche etc missionaries much later) So to me looking at it as seemingly illogical nonviolence that still 4/

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @TheAnnaGat @gwern

          worked for good reasons made sense. I may be wrong. (NB question re hypothesis could something violent and competitive spread in post-Rome Europe and where would we be now) (NB Protestantism later happened in strong property law era / places; see my later post re Dittmar) End.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Anna Gát‏ @TheAnnaGat Jan 12
          Replying to @TheAnnaGat @gwern

          (a PS: one other benefit was that single men were as they seem to be now the most mobile -- so when calculating the costs in retrospect the cost efficiency of that has to be taken into account too. How would I spread nonviolent message with little money and no military power...?)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. End of conversation

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