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@gwern

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gwern

@gwern

Writer, independent researcher, Internet 𝘣𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘳𝘸𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘳

Present day. Present time. (Ahahaha!)
gwern.net
Joined November 2008

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    gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16

    Cowen asks (https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/tyler-cowen-robert-wiblin-stubborn-attachments-80000-hours-podcast-359aa62aa8ab …) if VR can finally replace face-to-faces. People this weekend agreed there's something special about face-to-face but not about what, when I asked: is voice enough? Gesture tracking? Eye-gaze tracking? Facial mapping? How could this be tested?

    2:38 PM - 16 Oct 2018
    • 2 Retweets
    • 8 Likes
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    5 replies 2 retweets 8 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Nathan Taylor‏ @ntaylor963 Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        recall there was a big push for specialized corporate video web conference rooms at $30k a pop maybe 8 years ago. I think there's some associated studies on latency, video fidelity required, etc, before people said they were as good as live. tried some searches but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @ntaylor963

        Yeah, hypothetically a 'glass wall' should be as good as in-person if it's all audio-visually mediated. Of course, VR headsets still have the advantage of being way cheaper/compact, and might have other advantages (better latency because sending more abstracted data?).

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Nathan Taylor‏ @ntaylor963 Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        yes. I guess my point if is there are public studies from that "glass wall" attempt, it'd be good guess for where you need to get to reach true face to face. I tried one once. It was (at the time) quite shocking how useful it was for catching facial emotional nuance.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @ntaylor963

        Yeah, it would definitely be an upper bound on how much AV fidelity you need. My worry is that you can argue that the really useful rare connections at conferences like initiating friendships require higher fidelity and wouldn't be measured appropriately in available studies.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern @ntaylor963

        (Studying corporate meetings is arguably studying a very coarse and simplistic and formalized form of human interaction, which can be satisfied within available measurements by crude methods.)

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Florent Crivello‏ @Altimor Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        I think it takes very little, most of it is probably just *feeling* like someone is physically right there with you. The brain is surprisingly easily fooled, and can extrapolate a lot from even just 2-3 data points (see Goodwin et al 1962 haptic illusion)

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Florent Crivello‏ @Altimor Oct 16
        Replying to @Altimor @gwern

        Videoconference doesn’t cut it I think in large part because of the 2D aspect — your brain smells something fishy with that flat tiny person standing in front of you

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @Altimor

        What about 3D TV displays then?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Florent Crivello‏ @Altimor Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        Still doesn’t quite feel like the person’s right there next to you, and also 3D TVs flopped for some reason. You need a critical mass for these new media to work — eg look at FaceTime, I remember when everybody was saying that video calls sucked and that Apple shouldn’t do them

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @Altimor

        Not sure about that example. Isn't that more a matter of polish and debugging and gradual improvements to Internet than 'critical mass'? Each FaceTime call presumably would work just as well if 2 people were using it as 20 million.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Florent Crivello‏ @Altimor Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        Right but there’s a chicken and egg problem: why would you sign up to a video call service which none of your friends is signed up to? Apple solved that problem by including it by default in iOS

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      8. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 16
        Replying to @Altimor

        I was trying to exclude the network effects there. For person-to-person meetings, you don't need a big network, you just need that specific person. (If I could get all the benefits but avoid a half-week-long trip to California by simply installing an app, I certainly would!)

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Alexey Guzey‏ @alexeyguzey Oct 17
        Replying to @gwern

        for personal meetings it's also a costly signal: the fact that you allocated time / money / inconvenience to get to the meeting

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. gwern‏ @gwern Oct 17
        Replying to @alexeyguzey

        Yes, but how much of it is that? Few people ask where you came from to gauge how costly the conference/visit is. And if necessary, other more useful costs can be imposed. (My suggestion to people was a required-reading list! Get everyone onto the same page, literally.)

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. John Backus‏ @backus Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        Tech aspect IMO is latency. Any latency on top of IRL response times is an awkwardness penalty. Social dynamic aspect is the costly signal of coordinating to be face-to-face with someone vs being remote. A lot of room for improvement on both I think

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. gringx‏ @NormieDeGuerre Oct 16
        Replying to @gwern

        Obvious ones would be latency and embodied context. If I'm sitting at a meeting table, others' body language & relative position, where they direct their gaze and glances are all relevant. Ability to instantly communicate subtle signals through sub-second eye contact/expressions

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