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gtaogle's profile
System of a Dad
System of a Dad
System of a Dad
@gtaogle

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System of a Dad

@gtaogle

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Baltimore, MD
Joined August 2014

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    System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

    It's all about alienism vs nativism

    8:17 AM - 20 Oct 2018
    • 1 Like
    • Roman
    2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      2. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        note that I'm neither an alienist nor a nativist, because both involve a certain intense dislike of categories that I don't share.

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      3. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        nativism is straightfoward and I think everyone knows what it is. R*cist is a particular slur used against nativists by alienists. It's a slur because it's scurrilous, i.e. it's intentionally false in a way designed to make someone publicly look bad.

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      4. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        alienism is less straightforward to most, but "self hating" is a slur we presently often seem used against alienists by nativists. Again, it's a slur because it's false, although more in this case I think Nativists understand it's probably inaccurate rather than false.

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      5. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        To explain the paradigm, we generally falsely think that alienists are self-hating members of their own people. This is completely false, because alienists understand that, especially according to one's own group, there are multiple levels of identification.

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      6. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Alienists seem to accuse "their own" of certain errors. This is not true! People who want illegal immigration don't want it into their own communities, and if/when they try this (foolishly) they are immediately reprimanded by reality.

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      7. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Notice that both nativists and alienists are uniformly against things which would clearly affect all of "their people", say, Americans. No one in either party really wants America nuked. Those who would actively support this as a policy are deranged.

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      8. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        (notice whenever this gallows-subject comes up, nativists joke about alienist centers like NY or DC getting nuked.) People who delight in all Americans being destroyed by a disaster will never receive power; their views are irrelevant or satirical.

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      9. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Alienists are so called because of the observation that the things they condemn their fellow - say - Americans - for, they excuse in strangers. "Poor Americans of a certain race are r*cist", but "Out groups displaying the same behavior are not." Alienism.

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      10. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        America is a peculiar situation because as a clearly multi-ethnic society from early time (we mean here the divide between blacks and whites) there is always a ready-made out-group for alienists to use.

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      11. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Alienist claims that out-groups cannot have the same condemnable attributes as their in-group rivals because they are out-grouped is irrelevant. The moral force of their arguments lies in condemning conduct regardless of position, alienists consistently excuse strangers.

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      12. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        The flip side is true of nativists, of course. Nativists will consistently condemn attributes in strangers that they would excuse in their own. This is the origin of Alienist behavior, because Alienists are politically recruiting outsiders to out-flank their rivals.

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      13. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Consider the case of Jewish people: why does no single Jewish person wish to see "the J*w named"? Because regardless of internal conflict, either side would affected negatively if everyone started being suspicious of a person just because they were Jewish, whether Zionist or not.

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      14. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        The other conflicts you see are Alienists (i.e. Soros types) attacking Nativists (i.e. Zionists) or vice versa. (Zionist is an Alienist slur, 'self hating Jew' is a Nativist one.)

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      15. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        It's possible for people to get so wrapped up in their politics that they would be glad to see ALL of their people wiped out just to deal with their rivals. FELLAS, do not stare into this abyss

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      16. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Alienism seems to co-arise with Nativism. Under normal circumstances people are not nativistic; they have no specific dislike for outsiders. This is the natural state of civilized man, sorry everyone, it's science.

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      17. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        What is true however that civilized men may be led to have a strong dislike for a certain group because that group is -- for example -- a threat. Under normal circumstances, under what situation would a Somali be a threat to an Englishman?

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      18. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        I use the term nativist because it is a fluid category of "us" vs "them". Civic nationalists are nativists who more loosely define "us" (i.e. as people who are willing to follow a certain tradition of law, instead of those ruled by a particular government, territory, ethny etc)

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      19. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        In the action of a political class, the weaker part may take the tack of bringing outsiders into the class or realm to strengthen itself against them. This naturally places some of their own in direct conflict with outsiders!

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      20. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        This naturally generates two distinct positions: 1. Certain neutral outsiders are now a threat; they are disliked. 2. Certain neutral outsiders are now an asset; they are especially liked.

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      21. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        If the society already has significant groups of outsiders, which isn't uncommon, the impulse can begin the other way. Imagine it's 1830 and you're in a region that's 80% black folks. You could easily say, "look what happened in the Haitian revolution!" - quite a voter turnout.

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      22. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        In the absence of democracy, this impulse still exists but is much less profitable on both ends. Whigs still could import foreigners to work cheaply in their factories, but the impact on their political power isn't immediate.

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      23. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        One way to look at the nativist/alienist angle without polluting your mind with skin color heebie-jeebies is to think about Roman Patricians vs. Plebians.

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      24. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        The patricians potentially form a distinct "us" - they had their own marriage rituals, special powers and privileges, etc. But in the balanced state, notable plebian families were incorporated into the class gradually.

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      25. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        This prevented Patricians AND Plebians from forming a highly distinct "us vs them" while still maintaining the thick barrier in fact between the two classes. Neither the nativist nor the alienist impulse could take hold,

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      26. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        In the latter era, the plebians counter-organized. As I understand it this is because they stopped incorporating them. Now this counter-organized group forms a potential political bloc for weaker Patricians to use against their stronger rivals.

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      27. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        Clearly, a state in which a significant portion of *highly distinct* foreigners is imported cannot easily incorporate this "other" and retain the character which allows it to do so. Instead, the failure mode will present itself.

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      28. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        That is, the nativists will rightly see that assimilation is infeasible and wall themselves off, creating a previously unrealized level of real antagonism against the "other".

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      29. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        This antagonism, generally unrepresentative of the magnanimous character that the powerful ought to show, is then easily used against them by the counter-party, who will seem to be targeting "themselves."

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      30. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        But note that the whole conflict here is happening within the group. The risk here is twofold 1. The nativists manage to create a permanent enemy of some group resulting in war 2. The alienists manage to his themselves anyway, causing massive damage to their society

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      31. System of a Dad‏ @gtaogle Oct 20

        These tend to happen because the successors of these two original movements, because these movements are saying one thing but really mean another, tend to forget the joke and take the rhetoric completely seriously.

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