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graydon_pub's profile
Graydon Hoare
Graydon Hoare
Graydon Hoare
@graydon_pub

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Graydon Hoare

@graydon_pub

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Joined July 2010

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    1. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @jntrnr

      I was referring to Unpin.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS

      How is that different, though. That's what you asserted, and it's not clear to me

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @jntrnr

      Send + Sync are required for encoding thread safety (or lack thereof) in the type system. That's kind of a big deal, deserving baked-in magic traits. In addition, they are pretty orthogonal – in particular they don't conflict with basic ideas in the language. (1/n)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS @jntrnr

      In contrast, the async/await/generator feature is a very thin layer of syntactic sugar, that shouldn't, in my opinion, break a well-established contract, movability, which by the way is one of the strongest advantages of Rust. (2/2)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS

      what do you mean by "movability" in this context?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @jntrnr

      basically just `impl !Unpin`.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS @jntrnr

      sorry, of course I meant `impl Unpin`. (already got confused by the negative.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS

      you said movability was a well-established contract. What do you mean?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @jntrnr

      I mean, before Unpin, all types were (meant to be) movable. This was a fundamental assumption that could be relied on throughout the language. With the introduction of Unpin, this will no longer be true – that's the point of Unpin, if I understand correctly.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @H2CO3_iOS

      I guess I understand it a bit differently. Take string constants, for example. We already had the idea of memory that is more static. This just takes a concept that existed implicitly and made it more explicit.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 21 Mar 2018
      Replying to @jntrnr @H2CO3_iOS

      Yeah, as nervous as I am about generators, async/await, and language feature creep, I think non-movability is just peeling off an implicit aspect of statics (and surfaces elsewhere, eg. in unsafe code that's informally sensitive to pointer identity / movement)

      11:41 AM - 21 Mar 2018
      • 1 Retweet
      • 3 Likes
      • Joe Savage Brendan Zabarauskas Rustacean::from("")
      2 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Rustacean::from("")‏ @H2CO3_iOS 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @graydon_pub

          That's true, so it probably has more benefits other than just generators, I buy that. Re feature creep, it looks like the Rubyfication of Rust is getting out of hand… I really hope we won't end up being C++ 2.0 with every single programmer shoving in their own niche feature.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @H2CO3_iOS

          It's a tough call. I basically spent the final year I was involved in the project saying no to things, and it didn't really endear me to anyone, nor fix the problems people were trying to solve with all the things I was resisting.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @graydon_pub @H2CO3_iOS

          While I agree that languages frequently add more features than is healthy for them, I also sympathize with the difficulty of saying exactly _where_ to stop. Last conversation I had like this ended with the metaphor "approach an asymptote".

          3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        5. without butts, dreams dry up‏ @withoutboats 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @graydon_pub @H2CO3_iOS

          There’s no language semantics in Unpin. These types can be moved just like any other; the Pin type’s API just doesn’t support moving a !Unpin type out of it

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. without butts, dreams dry up‏ @withoutboats 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @withoutboats @graydon_pub @H2CO3_iOS

          I thought this was the end of the thread, my tweet isn’t directly connected to Graydon’s immediately prior tweet

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. without butts, dreams dry up‏ @withoutboats 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @withoutboats @graydon_pub @H2CO3_iOS

          Anyway this criticism seems misinformed to me. We specifically did *not* add any language level notion of IMO ability, it’s all library code implemented in terms of existing features

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        8. without butts, dreams dry up‏ @withoutboats 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @withoutboats @graydon_pub @H2CO3_iOS

          *immovabllity not IMO ability

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        9. End of conversation
        1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 21 Mar 2018
          Replying to @graydon_pub @jntrnr @H2CO3_iOS

          (I mean I personally think it would have been nice to keep traits as a dispatch thing alone, keep them out of the role of hooks for special judgements the compiler gets to make; but that ship sailed ages ago, the "shift compiler logic to libraries" argument won)

          0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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