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fchollet's profile
François Chollet
François Chollet
François Chollet
Verified account
@fchollet

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François CholletVerified account

@fchollet

Deep learning @google. Creator of Keras. Author of 'Deep Learning with Python'. Opinions are my own.

United States
fchollet.com
Joined August 2009

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    1. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      There are lots of blog posts out there claiming to teach you how to use deep learning (typically RNNs) to predict stock prices, FX rates, BTC price, from past price data. Is it actually possible? Well, mostly not. A thread.

      40 replies 364 retweets 1,163 likes
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    2. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      All successful trading is information arbitraging: exploiting a piece of information others don't know (or won't/can't use). That's because market are dynamic: trading a signal erases the signal.

      4 replies 17 retweets 158 likes
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    3. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      If any given source of information or model (e.g. Bollinger bands) becomes known to more than a few players, it stops being effective (unless you want to compete of how fast you can act on the signal).

      3 replies 9 retweets 89 likes
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    4. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      For this reason, it is not possible to use publicly available price data and widely-known DL models to make money trading liquid & easy to trade assets. Moreover, price data is a source of info that's already so squeezed that no amount of modeling improvement will help you.

      2 replies 11 retweets 100 likes
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    5. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      There was likely a short period of time in the past where using LSTM represented a meaningful advantage. Likewise there was a point in time where a DL trading bot that looked at past BTC prices would have made money. But not anymore, at least not at any meaningful scale.

      2 replies 6 retweets 73 likes
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    6. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      That doesn't mean that price data doesn't contain information. Only that this information doesn't convert to successful strategies for an average player. It's possible to show models that look like they would be successful, in theory. But you can't deploy them.

      3 replies 12 retweets 84 likes
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      François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 27 Sep 2019

      Remember, you need an advantage no one else has (usually a new dataset). It's purely a game of information arbitrage. You can't recycle the same information and models everyone has access to. Unless you know you're special, don't even try. And if you have to ask, you're not.

      10:17 AM - 27 Sep 2019
      • 42 Retweets
      • 340 Likes
      • Indraneel Deshpande dan Sayan Goswami Average 2% Objective Ruffian Eralp Bayraktar CH1229 Filippo Fiocchi benbenfiol kaalam.ai
      10 replies 42 retweets 340 likes
        1. Aakash Kumar Nain‏ @A_K_Nain 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          The last line is 🔥

          0 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
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        1. UNN‏ @AbhinavUnnam 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          Thank you for the detailed take. Also, there is the whole set of predicting returns and not prices, one being stationary and other not. AI in trading has been a market wrapper for a while.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. H.Kazemi‏ @hbkazemi33 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          Simply put, Markets are Efficient. Also, almost all algorithms were not developed for use in "adversarial" environments. Finally, noise to signal is far to high compared to applications for which these algos were developed in the first place.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Laurent Zeimes‏ @laurentzeimes 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          Last line is 🤢 Crypto markets are so inefficient that you could make money with logistic regression. Not so long ago and in period of volatility you can even do triangular arbitrage strat. on the same exchange.. the peak of market inefficiencies.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. The Non-Consensus‏ @thenonconsensus 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          People routinely underestimate the sophistication of the markets

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        1. Jay Vlach‏ @JayVlach 27 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          I'm always suprised by how many people think they are very special and can beat professional players with very deep pockets in markets. And often they are not very open to reason, so I guess they have to make the "experience" for themselves to learn.

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        2. Syco Circus‏ @syco_circus 28 Sep 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          Price prediction is not possible, after 10.000 iterations of various DL models on the problem I can confirm this. Though it is possible to classify trends with around 80% acc. But this has some kind of inherent uncertainty (similar to Heisenbergs) where the higher the acc. on one

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Syco Circus‏ @syco_circus 28 Sep 2019
          Replying to @syco_circus @fchollet

          variable, the lower the acc. on anotherone (e.g. price vs. time). Furthermore noone will go public if they found a working model, bc. that will destroy its advantage. At least that work made me pretty proficient with Keras, TF, CUDA and Python...

          0 replies 1 retweet 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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