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fchollet's profile
François Chollet
François Chollet
François Chollet
Verified account
@fchollet

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François CholletVerified account

@fchollet

Deep learning @google. Creator of Keras. Author of 'Deep Learning with Python'. Opinions are my own.

United States
fchollet.com
Joined August 2009

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    1. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019

      François Chollet Retweeted

      Snowflakes are a good example of the fact that thermodynamic entropy isn't the same as "order" as perceived by humans. The snowflake has higher entropy (2nd law) than the water + air system that formed it, even though it looks far more organized. https://twitter.com/ZonePhysics/status/1160843941857648640 …

      François Chollet added,

      This Tweet is unavailable.
      53 replies 263 retweets 1,047 likes
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    2. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @fchollet

      i don't think that's true. snowflakes have lower entropy than the disorganized liquid water from which they are formed, but a snowflake isn't a closed system, to which the 2nd law applies.

      1 reply 0 retweets 13 likes
    3. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece

      No, the snowflake + surrounding air system (close system) has higher entropy then the original water + air, but it looks more organized. This is true for the formation of any crystal in general.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @fchollet @RyanDavidReece

      The opposite would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @fchollet

      the total system of snowflake + environment has higher entropy, but the snowflake and its particles, seen as a system, are in a lower entropy state as the snowflake than not

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    6. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @fchollet

      think about it: there are way more ways to throw around H20 in general than to arrange them into a snowflake ==> snowflakes have lower entropy than fluids.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece

      The point isn't about the entropy of the crystal itself, it's about the fact that organization is spontaneously emerging while simultaneously the entropy of the system is increasing. You could make the same point abt sealing you off in a room while you solve a 1,000 piece puzzle.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    8. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @fchollet

      entropy of system + environment is increasing

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece

      System = the whole thing. Like the contents of your freezer. Not specifically the H2O molecules. The surrounding air + water looks disorganized. Then suddenly, order. Yet entropy has increased. That's the point.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @fchollet

      then your OP is less mysterious, because the disorder of the total system has increased, it's just not localized in flakes to which we attend.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      François Chollet‏Verified account @fchollet 12 Aug 2019
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece

      No, you're still missing the point. The *apparent* disorder has decreased. The freezer with ice crystals in it looks more organized than when it had liquid water. That's the entire point: apparent disorder as perceived by humans is not the same as thermodynamic entropy.

      7:35 PM - 12 Aug 2019
      • 8 Likes
      • Fabian Hachenberg Gianmario Candore Akitando.com Tim H neuropoesis paused. Rafael Oliveira Emily Daniel Gibbs
      4 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
          Replying to @fchollet

          i don't think we need to go so far as to say who has missed a point when we've both nudged points of clarity.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 12 Aug 2019
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @fchollet

          I still think your OP, as stated, is just false: "The snowflake has higher entropy (2nd law) than the water + air system that formed it" ... No

          1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. Jake Searcy‏ @JakeSearcy 12 Aug 2019
          Replying to @fchollet @RyanDavidReece

          I agree we humans do suck at seeing air molecules move around.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. bgc‏ @blockspins 12 Aug 2019
          Replying to @fchollet @RyanDavidReece

          There are some systems where a crystalline state actually has higher entropy than the corresponding liquid state! For instance, consider a packing of chopsticks or other hard rods (a crude model for the nematic liquid crystals in LCDs). Compare the "crystalline" state where ...

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. bgc‏ @blockspins 12 Aug 2019
          Replying to @blockspins @fchollet @RyanDavidReece

          the rods are aligned to the "liquid" state where the rods are pointing in random directions. At sufficiently high fixed density, the *aligned* rods are entropically preferred because they have much more space to move around than the randomly-oriented rods.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Show replies
        1. Peter Wang‏ @pwang 13 Aug 2019
          Replying to @fchollet @RyanDavidReece

          But isn't the whole point that the perception is flawed because we *can't* see the rest of the closed system, e.g. we are not imaging the substrate in thermal IR to see it warm up, imaging the surrounding air so we can see the swirls of air currents, etc?

          0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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