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evantthompson's profile
Evan Thompson
Evan Thompson
Evan Thompson
@evantthompson

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Evan Thompson

@evantthompson

Writer, UBC Philosophy, Assoc Member Asian Studies & Psych Depts. Married to @beckettodd

Vancouver
evanthompson.me
Joined January 2015

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    Evan Thompson‏ @evantthompson 7 May 2019
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    Friston's free-energy principle is based on the premise that living systems are ergodic. Kauffman begins his new book with the premise that life is non-ergodic. Who is right? My money is on Kauffman on this one, but what do I know? A World Beyond Physics https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-world-beyond-physics-9780190871338#.XNGVGw1PdIQ.twitter …

    7:24 AM - 7 May 2019
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    • Eric Kevin Mitchell Akito Inoue Leyla Khenissi Sina Fazelpour 濱田太陽☀️ 平井靖史『ベルクソン『物質と記憶』を再起動する』(書肆心水)共編著・発売中 shigeru taguchi Immanuel Elbau
    9 replies 45 retweets 109 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Sean Carroll‏Verified account @seanmcarroll 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        Different things, no? Kauffman emphasizes that evolution of the genome is non-ergodic, which is certainly true. Friston only needs, presumably, the evolution of brain states to be ergodic. That's plausible, it's a much smaller space.

        3 replies 1 retweet 16 likes
      3. Sean Carroll‏Verified account @seanmcarroll 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @seanmcarroll @evantthompson

        My understanding here is worse than sketchy, however. (And I don't know why/if the free energy principle would really rely on ergodicity. It's not a closed system, there should be attractors.)

        1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
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      2. eripsa‏ @eripsa 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        If the science turns out to show beyond reasonable doubt that living systems are ergodic, to what extent would this compromise other aspects of the enactivist program? In other words, to what extent are you theoretically committed to this bet going your way?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Evan Thompson‏ @evantthompson 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @eripsa

        Good question. I don't think enactive ideas stand or fall with this issue. Part of the problem here is exactly what "ergodic" means. It may be that "nonstationary" is more relevant. (Ergodic may be compatible with nonstationary, but I need physicists to say)

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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      2. Sonali Sengupta‏ @sengupso 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        Isn't ergodicity the basis of fractal geometry ? If living systems are based on ergodicity they should possess fractal like features.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Evan Thompson‏ @evantthompson 8 May 2019
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        Replying to @sengupso

        Interesting. I don't know enough about this. But wouldn't it be enough for living systems to be a mix of ergodic and non-ergodic processes for them to have fractal features?

        5 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. Paras Chopra‏ @paraschopra 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        Isn’t ergodicity a far too precise concept to be either applicable or inapplicable to life? I wonder what does it even mean in a non-statistical physics fashion? (If it’s directionally applicable, does anyone have a working definition for this context?)

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      2. Joe Norman‏ @normonics 7 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        Friston uses ergodic ensemble as a working definition of a single organism from within his formal framework Kauffman is looking at evolution and penetration of the adjacent possible In general, biology is nonergodic, but the approximation might be reasonable in certain places

        1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
      3. Stephen Sillett‏ @StephenSillett 11 Sep 2019
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        Replying to @normonics @evantthompson

        Would you say that the working approximation of even visiting across a range of states, requires dynamic exchange with and movement in a place? i.e. if a system is deprived of active inference options, too few states get engaged, and the surprisal approach becomes less optimal.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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      2. svateboje‏ @svateboje 8 May 2019
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        Replying to @evantthompson

        i need to spend more time w Friston's work, but it seems to me that if the internal states have been able to map the regularity of the base flow (represented by the external states) to the external states, then the internal+external states will be in an ergodic attracting set. 1/

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. svateboje‏ @svateboje 8 May 2019
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        Replying to @svateboje @evantthompson

        if the internal states haven't accomplished that yet, they have some learning to do. it doesn't seem to me that a ton hangs on actually reaching optimality, but i'm only one paper in. also not sure how to scale up from subsystems. fascinating stuff tho. 2/pic.twitter.com/Q7zL8hBgxm

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