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emptywheel's profile
emptywheel
emptywheel
emptywheel
@emptywheel

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emptywheel

@emptywheel

Abundant tweets about civil liberties & national security. "Has a longer memory than an elephant & keeps more records than Jim Comey.” Legendary potty mouth.

Grand Rapids, MI
emptywheel.net
Joined August 2008

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    1. Josh Chafetz‏Verified account @joshchafetz Sep 12

      .@rickhasen explains why the crowd-sourced fundraising for Sen. Collins' TBD opponent if Collins votes to confirm Kavanaugh is not in any way bribery ... and why it's rich for Collins et al. to claim that it is.https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/09/susan-collins-complains-of-bribery-after-nonbillionaires-try-to-influence-her-kavanaugh-vote.html …

      1 reply 14 retweets 19 likes
    2. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
      Replying to @joshchafetz

      What if the group said, "Senator, if you vote NO on Kavanaugh, we will direct this pre-raised $1M to you." – Would THAT be a bribery under 18 USC 201? I ask because, to a pol, a conditional promise to withhold $1M from your opponent ~= a conditional promise to give $1M to you.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Andy Wright‏Verified account @AndyMcCanse Sep 13
      Replying to @KDbyProxy @joshchafetz

      Not endorsing the actual offense applicability here, but one would be a meditation on bribery (carrot, $$ for you offer) and the other on extortion (stick, $$ for opponent threat)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
      Replying to @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      Agreed as to your point re extortion. Yet, I still think it fits bribery b/c a conditional promise "not to" does constitute an offer of a "thing of value" – even though Hasen scoffs at that very notion. For example... 1/pic.twitter.com/vUSzvEq1sk

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
      Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      Why isn't this about holding Collins to her past campaign promises?

      1 reply 3 retweets 6 likes
    6. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
      Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      Well, for one, the group running this thing don't frame it that way. https://www.crowdpac.com/campaigns/387413/either-sen-collins-votes-no-on-kavanaugh-or-we-fund-her-future-opponent?ref_code=carousel …pic.twitter.com/8lXG4Hudq1

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
      Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      Doesn't matter. She has run on being pro-choice. Running against someone bc they reneged on a campaign promise can't be bribery.

      1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
    8. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
      Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      It's not about "running". It's explicitly about an exchange of cash depending on her vote on K's confirmation. Otherwise you'd have to say it wouldn't be bribery if they said, "Senator Collins, if you vote NO, we'll give YOU the money."

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
      Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      If it involves Collins, it would be extortion, not bribery. Not sure how you can bribe someone who hasn't been determined yet.

      1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
    10. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
      Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      It's not about bribery of a pol "to be named later". And as for whether it's also extortion as to Collins, that's a diff Q.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
      Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

      Sure it is. Running a campaign against someone bc they have failed to keep their campaign promise not only isn't bribery, there's a very long history of it on both sides, usually not crowd-funded.

      11:18 AM - 13 Sep 2018
      • 2 Retweets
      • 8 Likes
      • Stephen Le Duc P̵̛wn̷̕̕ A̶͡ll͜͝͝ T̡̛̕h̷̶̀͠͡e̷̵̶̷ T̵͜͢h̸̸́͟i̕ng͝s͡ DRW Yos-scare-an Jana🗽⚖I believe Dr. Ford⚖🗽 WELCOME TO MANISTAN Michael Huckins Gene Penise 🎃Don’t Boo👻, Vote!🎃
      2 replies 2 retweets 8 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          Charles Koch calls a D senator running for reelection this Nov. "Senator, I was planning on having a fundraiser next month to raise $1M for your opponent. But if you vote YES on Kavanaugh, I won't hold the fundraiser." I say that's an offer of a thing of value.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          CHarles Koch calls up a D Senator and says, "in the past, I've supported you because you like unrestricted capitalism. I consider a vote for a SCOTUS candidate who favors restricting capitalism an important vote." Which happens --- every single day.

          1 reply 2 retweets 6 likes
        4. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          A) While I recall congressmen being prosecuted for doing official acts in return for $ for themselves, I don't recall any being prosecuted for taking $ for their campaigns. B) Yes, things happen every day that are arguably illegal & yet aren't prosecuted. 1/

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @emptywheel and

          C) People are saying Collins is wrong to have said "bribery". Saying no one is ever prosecuted for what that group is doing doesn't mean it's not bribery. 2/

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @emptywheel and

          D) Actual framing matters. Consider how some ppl who ask a celeb for money to not publish a tell-all book are prosecuted for extortion while others are not – b/c how the "ask" was framed. 3/3

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @emptywheel and

          Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆 Retweeted emptywheel

          In sum, look at the group's very words: "Either Sen. Collins VOTES NO on Kavanaugh OR we fund her future opponent" You can describe what's behind it however you want, but their words matter… which is why your hypo here is nothing like what they're doing.https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1040307463877275654 …

          Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆 added,

          emptywheel @emptywheel
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz
          CHarles Koch calls up a D Senator and says, "in the past, I've supported you because you like unrestricted capitalism. I consider a vote for a SCOTUS candidate who favors restricting capitalism an important vote." Which happens --- every single day.
          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Sep 13
          Replying to @KDbyProxy @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          Eh. Good luck proving this in court without blowing up virtually all GOP funding.

          1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
        9. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          It's not about court. It's never been about court. It's about people mocking Collins (and anyone else) for saying it's "bribery". It IS bribery (or call it extortion). The fact that it's the sort that's not prosecuted is a different matter entirely.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 2 more replies
        1. Ira Goldman  🦆 🦆 🦆‏ @KDbyProxy Sep 13
          Replying to @emptywheel @AndyMcCanse @joshchafetz

          "failed to keep their campaign promise"? Nowhere in the group's 374-word statement to Collins does it mention anything about a campaign promise. Indeed, there's no mention of any of Collins' prior statements or positions. The group simply says: Senator Collins, vote NO or else.pic.twitter.com/d3odzY5tCZ

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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