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emptywheel's profile
emptywheel
emptywheel
emptywheel
@emptywheel

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emptywheel

@emptywheel

Abundant tweets about civil liberties & national security. "Has a longer memory than an elephant & keeps more records than Jim Comey.” Legendary potty mouth.

Grand Rapids, MI
emptywheel.net
Joined August 2008

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    1. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
      Replying to @RickPetree @SpyTalker

      Not what I said Rick. There have been multiple extraditions of hackers specifically and there is a long history of renditions. Not liking or approving of either has zero bearing on whether they should be used.

      1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
    2. Rick Petree‏ @RickPetree Jul 14
      Replying to @robertcaruso @SpyTalker

      Extradition and rendition, of course, are different things. Are you saying we have 'rendered' (extra-judicially kidnapped) foreign hackers ? I'm aware of extraditions (from Spain, for example), but not renditions.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
      Replying to @RickPetree @SpyTalker

      I’m saying both should be acceptable courses of action now that they’ve been indicted. If they leave Russia they should be either rendered or extradited by whoever catches them. Recently it was the Czechs. None of this is controversial in the slightest.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    4. Rick Petree‏ @RickPetree Jul 14
      Replying to @robertcaruso @SpyTalker

      I think if you ask the governments of any country in which we might find these people whether they view rendition as 'not controversial in the slightest' you might be surprised by their answer. It is highly controversial. And we, as a govt., oppose it (at least officially).+

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
      Replying to @RickPetree @SpyTalker

      It’s not extralegal. Rendition that ends in torture is extralegal. I’m confident that if I am reprimanded by a practicing national security lawyer it will be on the margins. Bush-era renditions were widely panned because people didn’t enter DOJ custody. Rendition is not only CIA.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Rick Petree‏ @RickPetree Jul 14
      Replying to @robertcaruso @SpyTalker

      Dead wrong. Rendition, with or with torture, is illegal. Which is why, when USG does it, it goes to great pains to hide it. A CIA officer has been tried in Italy for her part in a rendition gone wrong. I can send links, but you must know the case.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
      Replying to @RickPetree @SpyTalker

      If you don’t think FBI and CIA can render I have bad news. That’s just not true.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Jeff Stein‏Verified account @SpyTalker Jul 14
      Replying to @robertcaruso @RickPetree

      Yes, they do. Libyan and Somali terror suspects have been tendered to the US to stand trial, no?

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
      Replying to @SpyTalker @RickPetree

      Yes. That’s it’s purpose. Again, the word is toxic now because the practice was perverted under Bush. But rendition is meant to snatch someone and get them back to our custody *to stand trial*. It’s NOT meant to send them to another facility somewhere. Warsame was even Mirandized

      3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Rick Petree‏ @RickPetree Jul 14
      Replying to @robertcaruso @SpyTalker

      If you can cite a single case in which a 'rendered' defendant has been successfully tried in U.S. federal court, I'd be very interested to study it. If you can cite a single instance in which USG has TRIED to do so, only to be slapped down by a judge, I'd also be interested.

      3 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
      emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jul 14
      Replying to @RickPetree @robertcaruso @SpyTalker

      Ahmed Abu Khattala. There are others. @SeamusHughes can list them for you.

      12:57 PM - 14 Jul 2018
      • 2 Retweets
      • 4 Likes
      • Sherna perez Neurotica Provocatrix Rick Petree Jeff Stein Marti Reed
      2 replies 2 retweets 4 likes
        1. Robert Caruso‏Verified account @robertcaruso Jul 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @RickPetree @SpyTalker

          And Warsame? Was Warsame tried? I’m not sure.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Rick Petree‏ @RickPetree Jul 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @robertcaruso and

          Many thanks. I see he was convicted of terrorism related charges (arising out of 2012 Benghazi consulate attack) in U.S. fed ct. in 2017. So that is, indeed, a precedent (and, as you say, there are others).+

          2 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
        3. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jul 14
          Replying to @RickPetree @robertcaruso and

          I think the larger issue here is it's an indictment designed not to be prosecuted. While the info comes from a range of sources (people are vastly underestimating how much comes from partners) to prosecute it would put intel at risk.

          3 replies 5 retweets 18 likes
        4. Kevin Snapp‏ @kevin_snapp Jul 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @RickPetree and

          I blv the reason why prosecutors name as defendants foreign conspirators whom they have no hope of prosecuting in court is that w/a prima facie showing of conspiracy, their out-of-court statements can be used against those defendants in court, as an exception to the hearsay rule.

          2 replies 3 retweets 11 likes
        5. Jeff Stein‏Verified account @SpyTalker Jul 14
          Replying to @kevin_snapp @emptywheel and

          Sounds right to me. Also easier to get an obstruction of justice conviction when there is an actual crime, no?

          3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        6. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jul 14
          Replying to @SpyTalker @kevin_snapp and

          People really really really need to drop the obsession with obstruction.

          2 replies 2 retweets 10 likes
        7. Jeff Stein‏Verified account @SpyTalker Jul 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @kevin_snapp and

          Personal note: I’m not obsessed with obstruction. ;-)

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        8. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jul 14
          Replying to @SpyTalker @kevin_snapp and

          Sure. But why raise it here? It's actually not relevant to what is probably going on.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        9. Jeff Stein‏Verified account @SpyTalker Jul 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @kevin_snapp and

          Sigh. It’s ‘relevant’ because Mueller has filed such add-on charges. Otherwise, I agree, not very noteworthy. And with that, I am returning to my regularly scheduled programming — a baseball game

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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