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emptywheel's profile
emptywheel
emptywheel
emptywheel
@emptywheel

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emptywheel

@emptywheel

Abundant tweets about civil liberties & national security. "Has a longer memory than an elephant & keeps more records than Jim Comey.” Legendary potty mouth.

Grand Rapids, MI
emptywheel.net
Joined August 2008

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    1. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      True. But if he didn't exist would that make our hypocrisy okay, or just successful?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @OrinKerr and

      It's not even hypocrisy, in my view. A government isn't a person. Governments as large and complex as ours are inevitably going to engage in self-contradiction. I'm just glad I was able to do some work (primarily for State Department DRL) that I think made a lasting contribution.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      Jack's word. Actually I do think it's hypocrisy, and US hypocrisy on what constitutes fair online activity continues -- look at the press' blindness about all the info ops we conduct, even using SCL, a subsidiary of which RU may have used v us in 2016.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    4. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @OrinKerr and

      It bothered me when Jack used that word too. There's an understandable tendency to characterize governments as the same kind of ontological entity that a person is. But I think that's a mistake.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      You don't think a large number of IC professionals think of our information operations as different than Russia's? Or even our hacking?

      4 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @sfmnemonic and

      You don't think it's different, at all? I may be a hypocrite, but I do believe it is different, when a "civilized", democratic country *) does it, vs. a backward dictatorship. *) the distinction may be moot point in a year or two, true.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @sfmnemonic and

      I believe there is a difference in kind and use, more applicable to China than Russia. I believe the US plays games with distinctions between public/private/contractor/managed criminal that are ultimately just that, games.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @TrollMcTrollski and

      But I think anytime anyone is justifying one's behavior by invoking "civilization," it's a surefire, century's old sign they're dodging.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @sfmnemonic and

      Yes, and one may convincingly argue that it contributed to this country's ongoing slide into not-so-civilized-after-all. But let me narrow it down. It's the presence of democratic oversight and accountability (however imperfect!) that constitutes the crucial difference for me.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
      Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @emptywheel and

      There's a chance, even if it's slim, of somebody like, say, you bringing up attention to the govt. doing these things, actually resulting in policy reversals, legislative efforts, etc. In places like China and Russia they can do it on arbitrary whims; w/ no accountability.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @sfmnemonic and

      I'd say that's a fair distinction between internal use. That is, RU can and does hack its own citizens in problematic ways (including to collect evidence to kill them). 1/2

      7:35 AM - 14 Jun 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @TrollMcTrollski and

          But Jack's piece is abt international use. That's a harder distinction to make. Especially since most of our hacking/info ops v Russia is done under EO 12333, where there's only limited Congressional oversight.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @sfmnemonic and

          Did anything happen at all, in regard to what the US does internationally as a result of the Snowden scandal?

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @sfmnemonic and

          In what context? Obama passed PPD-28, which is fairly meaningless and unenforceable. And that's about collection, not hacking. There's also the President's Review Group, which led to more formal VEP process only really formalized after Shadow Brokers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @TrollMcTrollski and

          WRT domestic collection (not the subject here), USAF brought a few new transparency benefits, but arguably led to more innocent people being exposed to full brunt of NSA analysis.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. End of conversation

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