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emptywheel's profile
emptywheel
emptywheel
emptywheel
@emptywheel

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emptywheel

@emptywheel

Abundant tweets about civil liberties & national security. "Has a longer memory than an elephant & keeps more records than Jim Comey.” Legendary potty mouth.

Grand Rapids, MI
emptywheel.net
Joined August 2008

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    1. Orin Kerr‏Verified account @OrinKerr Jun 13

      Always read @jacklgoldsmith. https://knightcolumbia.org/sites/default/files/content/Emerging_Threats_Goldsmith.pdf …pic.twitter.com/QbbPAMOvZc

      1 reply 28 retweets 54 likes
    2. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
      Replying to @OrinKerr @benjaminwittes @jacklgoldsmith

      I think Jack's paper is really good, but it does raise the question of whether international human-rights frameworks should be taken to mean anything. I worked on some of the USG-funded projects he mentions, and we talked about Article 19, not the 1st Amendment, for example

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      I also kept asking "If Snowden didn't exist would he have to be invented"?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @OrinKerr and

      I think Jack's paper is particularly perceptive on how the Snowden revelations undercut USG's credibility in promoting freedom and privacy. Unsurprisingly, different parts of the government were working at cross purposes.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    5. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      True. But if he didn't exist would that make our hypocrisy okay, or just successful?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
      Replying to @emptywheel @OrinKerr and

      It's not even hypocrisy, in my view. A government isn't a person. Governments as large and complex as ours are inevitably going to engage in self-contradiction. I'm just glad I was able to do some work (primarily for State Department DRL) that I think made a lasting contribution.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
      Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

      Jack's word. Actually I do think it's hypocrisy, and US hypocrisy on what constitutes fair online activity continues -- look at the press' blindness about all the info ops we conduct, even using SCL, a subsidiary of which RU may have used v us in 2016.

      6:35 AM - 14 Jun 2018
      • 1 Retweet
      • 1 Like
      • tatere.🦑 Chris
      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Mike Godwin #EleNão‏Verified account @sfmnemonic Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @OrinKerr and

          It bothered me when Jack used that word too. There's an understandable tendency to characterize governments as the same kind of ontological entity that a person is. But I think that's a mistake.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @sfmnemonic @OrinKerr and

          You don't think a large number of IC professionals think of our information operations as different than Russia's? Or even our hacking?

          4 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @sfmnemonic and

          You don't think it's different, at all? I may be a hypocrite, but I do believe it is different, when a "civilized", democratic country *) does it, vs. a backward dictatorship. *) the distinction may be moot point in a year or two, true.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @sfmnemonic and

          I believe there is a difference in kind and use, more applicable to China than Russia. I believe the US plays games with distinctions between public/private/contractor/managed criminal that are ultimately just that, games.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @TrollMcTrollski and

          But I think anytime anyone is justifying one's behavior by invoking "civilization," it's a surefire, century's old sign they're dodging.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
          Replying to @emptywheel @sfmnemonic and

          Yes, and one may convincingly argue that it contributed to this country's ongoing slide into not-so-civilized-after-all. But let me narrow it down. It's the presence of democratic oversight and accountability (however imperfect!) that constitutes the crucial difference for me.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Troll McTrollski‏ @TrollMcTrollski Jun 14
          Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @emptywheel and

          There's a chance, even if it's slim, of somebody like, say, you bringing up attention to the govt. doing these things, actually resulting in policy reversals, legislative efforts, etc. In places like China and Russia they can do it on arbitrary whims; w/ no accountability.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. emptywheel‏ @emptywheel Jun 14
          Replying to @TrollMcTrollski @sfmnemonic and

          I'd say that's a fair distinction between internal use. That is, RU can and does hack its own citizens in problematic ways (including to collect evidence to kill them). 1/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 4 more replies

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