naw, all can Become Good, but 'i had no opportunity to Become Good' isn't a get out of NotGood card.
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Replying to @palecur @eigenrobot and
besides the good is inherently knowable to all thinking beings, in bicameral people it appears as a voice of great authority speaking directly to them
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so surely all men born in idk say Periclean Athens were irredeemably wicked start to finish on account of their reprehensible views of women thats pretty interesting youd've have thought that a reasonable fraction wouldve figured out the Correct 21C view but somehow no??
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Replying to @eigenrobot @palecur and
Are there any societies that you do believe were irredeemably wicked - perhaps those that regularly performed human sacrifice, had institutionalized slavery, etc? It's hard to see how this argument, if accepted, doesn't generalize to every past society.
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Replying to @hikikomorphism @eigenrobot and
If there is some sort of continuum between that evil society and a good society (like there kind of is between ancient Athens and the modern West) then maybe the wickedness was worth it. Aztecs were evil but were also a dead end, so their evil was not worth it.
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Replying to @lordcataplanga @hikikomorphism and
Arguably the Inca wouldn't have been, but the Aztecs, yeah.
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Replying to @palecur @lordcataplanga and
I feel more comfortable calling societies, separate from their collective human constituents, evil
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Replying to @eigenrobot @palecur and
that makes sense, I think - is the general idea that personal morality is a function of the society one is born in, and thus individuals cannot be said to be good or evil, just societies?
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Replying to @hikikomorphism @palecur and
hmmm not entirely sure, this is a position coming from intuition rather than reason as I write this, occurs to me I'm also less inclined to judge an entire society than specific institutions and subsystems for--well, systematic ethical breaches
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Replying to @eigenrobot @hikikomorphism and
I think the cohering model is something like: 1. individuals may be judged by their actions, in the context of the systems of which they're the substrates. 2. systems may be judged on a purely consequentialist basis 3. humans being limited in power and duration relative . . .
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to their surrounding systems, and having great difficulty altering those systems as individuals or even imagining what alterations might be possible, ought specifically be forgiven for baseline complicity in wicked systems beyond their practical control; but
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Replying to @eigenrobot @hikikomorphism and
4. perhaps: exceptional merits assigned to people who manage to improve existing systems at cost to themselves, and endless demerits to people who will new bad systems into being or corrupt existing good systems, either through recklessness or malevolence.
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