You're talking about transgender rights? A topic I have discussed fruitfully countless times, and often even convinced people on the other side to change some of their thinking around, but which apparently is impossible to have a civil conversation about.
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There's usually some kind of meaningful transition and attempt to actually live as the opposite sex. Not all of them have bottom surgery; that was the thing I was naive about. I'm fine with the ones who at least attempt to pass as female but some just take the everlasting mickey
Hmm. OK, I'm glad I asked for clarification. I'm not sure we have as much disagreement as I thought. Are you saying that trans women should be treated as women except in rare cases where they are so gender nonconforming as to be visually indistinguishable from men?
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I don't agree 100% but it does seem like a pretty small corner of the issue and maybe not worth disputing too strongly. It also sounds like you think passing is pretty important, maybe more important than genitals, which makes my standard thought experiment less relevant.
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My standard thought experiment (to lay cards on the table), being whether trans men should be allowed total access to women only spaces, regardless of how uncomfortable they make women, and how to stop cis men from pretending to be trans men.
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Yes, that. There's a difference between quietly nipping in for a whizz and barging in with an unwarranted sense of entitlement. Some of the worst ones go in and take photos of themselves to show off. This is a thing. It's worse in confined spaces such as prisons or shelters.
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