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dibblego's profile
Tony Morris
Tony Morris
Tony Morris
@dibblego

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Tony Morris

@dibblego

Power ∧ Attitude ⇒ Performance

Brisbane, Australia
tmorris.net
Joined May 2009

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    1. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @dibblego @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      Mmm... I'm not following. You're talking about Functor <: Applicative <: Monad <:... right? If we assume that they are broken - you've exposed a bad implementation, but that doesn't invalidate the principle though. It doesn't show it's impossible to implement a sane, say, Show

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @dibblego and

      That's why I asked for a definition. My very informal, likely incorret definition is, a type class is syntactic sugar for passing dictionaries around (+ implicit composition, which is really, really nice). Haskell has that. But so does Scala.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      That's the definition of type-classes. It's a 1:1 mapping from class to data type so that it can be implicitly passed. i.e. "global uniqueness" is not a feature, it's in the definition. It's even in the name. "type" "class"

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @dibblego @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      So - if type classes *must* have guaranteed global instance uniqueness, then that's fair - Scala doesn't have type classes according to that definition. But then - why do you consider that Haskell, as implemented in GHC, does?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      Haskell, the language will refuse to compile it. Simply, it violates the language standard. You must turn off this standard to break the rules. Though I'm much more interested in the question, "is there a valid or practical reason to turn off those rules?" Hard: no.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @dibblego @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      Yes, I agree with that: Haskell, the language, has that guarantee. But GHC, one possible but popular implementation of the language, doesn't. My point has always been GHC doesn't have type classes according to that definition, not Haskell doesns't.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      Right, but from my PoV, this is just holding up a trophy (or not). What are the practical consequences? Much more useful and interesting question. Does Scala have functional dependencies? Not in any *useful* sense. What about dependent types? Again, no. Type-classes? Also no.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @dibblego @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      Yes, that is fair - it *is* holding up a trophy, or rather, the opposite. This was what my very first tweet was about - frustrating at people telling me "Scala doesn't have type classes because global uniqueness!". Neither does Haskell's most popular implementation.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @dibblego and

      Is GHC's encoding of type classes more useful than Scala's? That is a matter of some debate, and I have no intelligent point to make there. Is Haskell a better language than Scala? Again, nothing clever to contribute. Just... stop bragging about global instance uniqueness.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 22 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @dibblego and

      (Not you specifically - you don't, that I can see. But since I've given a talk on type classes, I do get lots of "why are you talking about type classes, Scala doesn't have them, you don't know what you're talking about" comments. *That* is the source of my frustration).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 23 Nov 2020
      Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

      "does or does not have X" is a longstanding tradition for programming, especially within Scala. It allows us to avoid the hard questions, such as, "is X actually useful?" I find it boring and ego-centric, not frustrating.

      12:34 PM - 23 Nov 2020
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 23 Nov 2020
          Replying to @dibblego @puffnfresh @Iceland_jack

          Just to be clear though, these comments weren't from the Scala community...

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Nicolas Rinaudo‏ @NicolasRinaudo 23 Nov 2020
          Replying to @NicolasRinaudo @dibblego and

          Anyway, thanks for helping me understand your point of view better. I agree that "Haskell doesn't have X" isn't useful, but being repeatedly told "Scala sucks because it doesn't have X that Haskell" does over and over again, even when provably false, is frustrating.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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