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dibblego's profile
Tony Morris
Tony Morris
Tony Morris
@dibblego

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Tony Morris

@dibblego

Power ∧ Attitude ⇒ Performance

Brisbane, Australia
tmorris.net
Joined May 2009

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    1. Meredith L. Patterson‏Verified account @maradydd 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @jonathanccast @dakami and

      The thing is, brains do that. Nature does that. Physics does that. As Dan Geer says, security is the absence of unmitigatable surprise.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Dan Kaminsky‏Verified account @dakami 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @maradydd @jonathanccast and

      All abstractions are leaky because they encode implicit assumptions. Attempting to make all assumptions explicit creates awkward pedantry that *still* leaks, because thought transfer is a lossy process. Conversational vs. legal verbiage. I'm thinking clearly about the unclear.

      4 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @dakami @maradydd and

      Reminds me of testing's finding, "All oracles are heuristic". There are no perfect tests that can always separate the working from the not-working.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @DuncanYoudaho @dakami and

      Yes there are. They are called proofs.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @dibblego @dakami and

      With no side channels?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @DuncanYoudaho @dakami and

      What is a "side channel"? Proofs show correctness, to the point that there is nothing left to show. It is correct.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @dibblego

      After reading the rest of the thread, are you talking about a Lambda Calc proof of an implementation? I'm interested to see an example or two. Side channels from the hardware your implementation runs on make the proof heuristic. On paper it's perfect. On silicon, less so.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @DuncanYoudaho @dibblego

      They emit information through EMF. They constrain where none exists in the proof. Formally verified algorithms get owned all the time by unseen constraints. That's why all abstractions are leaky and all oracles are heuristic. Gödel's Incompleteness is related.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 22 Apr 2019
      Replying to @DuncanYoudaho

      Here is an abstraction called f. (forall x. x -> f x, forall a b. (a -> f b) -> f a -> f b) Where is the leak?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 23 Apr 2019
      Replying to @dibblego

      As lambda calc is a formal logic system, it is necessarily incomplete. Curry's paradox is one example. I can't remember enough lambda calc to do it myself, but how would it handle a contradiction like that?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 23 Apr 2019
      Replying to @DuncanYoudaho

      You might be referring to one instance of the lambda calculi. This does not apply to every "formal logic system." You might mean constructivist intuitionistic logic. None of this shows me where the leak is, in the abstraction that I gave. Please show me where it is.

      7:52 PM - 23 Apr 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan Hill‏ @DuncanYoudaho 23 Apr 2019
          Replying to @dibblego

          Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems …

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tony Morris‏ @dibblego 23 Apr 2019
          Replying to @DuncanYoudaho

          I am acutely aware of this. Again, the claim is "all abstractions leak." I gave an abstraction. Where is the leak? Please point to it.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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