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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. After Sol‏ @Locus_of_Ctrl Mar 7

      Sometimes I am alarmed that so few people are “species ethicists.” In a Darwinian sense, the chicken had won a genetic lottery by being tasty, horse by being fast, dog by being friendly. Discontinuing meat is ethically equivalent to species extinction.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. After Sol‏ @Locus_of_Ctrl Mar 7
      Replying to @Locus_of_Ctrl

      In other words, the individual suffering of animal is given ethical priority over perpetuation of species. And yet, wild animals typically die much more painful deaths than domesticated ones (being disemboveled by hyenas when you’re old or infirm is no fun).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
      Replying to @Locus_of_Ctrl

      I think the typical animal-welfare moralist argument against eating meat has more to do with the conditions of the animals' lives rather than the circumstances of their deaths.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. After Sol‏ @Locus_of_Ctrl Mar 7
      Replying to @danlistensto

      So "quality of life" is being prioritized over suffering? And how is quality of life defined? Closer to natural habitat = good? By that argument, it is highly immoral that humans live in cities and not in mud huts by the river.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
      Replying to @Locus_of_Ctrl

      I think that is the argument, yes. There's some kind of moral calculus that has an equation of the form: Suffering = Pain * Time How is quality of life defined? That's the part where it goes off the rails, and is largely why I'm not persuaded by animal-welfare arguments.

      11:57 AM - 7 Mar 2018
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
          Replying to @danlistensto @Locus_of_Ctrl

          the vat-grown scenario is meant to address the issue of animal suffering. I'd rather take on the issue of ecological damage and misallocation of scarce resources associated with factory-farming though, but that's off topic from what Ort was trying to discuss.

          1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
          Replying to @danlistensto @Locus_of_Ctrl

          but, if we're probing into thought experiment hypotheticals, I would insist that the vat-grown meat also be more energy efficient to produce than live animal meat or else it's pointless to begin with, at least according to where my priorities are.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. After Sol‏ @Locus_of_Ctrl Mar 7
          Replying to @danlistensto

          There are species of ants that "farm" aphids. Are the ants committing a moral crime by not foraging for the sweet excretions of wild aphids instead? The ants have been doing this for millions of years though. What if the aphids' "natural habitat" involves a symbiosis with ants?

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. After Sol‏ @Locus_of_Ctrl Mar 7
          Replying to @Locus_of_Ctrl @danlistensto

          If the aphids' symbiosis with ants is considered "natural" while human symbiosis with, say, cows, is "unnatural" -- is it because the latter have recently become radically more efficient at extracting milk? If not, is it because the ants have been doing it for millions of years?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
          Replying to @Locus_of_Ctrl

          I'm certainly not trying to use "natural" as a proxy for "good", as is frequently done by ecologically minded folks. I think that's orthogonal to the question we're discussing. Many things in the non-human influenced parts of the ecosphere are horrific and painful.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Mar 7
          Replying to @danlistensto @Locus_of_Ctrl

          I do, however, want to discuss whether we can optimize for minimal suffering in a farm environment though.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. End of conversation

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