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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

      Sure but I would argue that the point of virtues is that they are good rules for producing good ends in general, despite such ignorance. Still the ends justify the rules.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

      For this consequentialist, virtues are good because of their results, not case by case, but in general. They are not good arbitrarily.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

      nobody tries to argue that virtues are good arbitrarily. viewing virtues as good because you believe they produce good consequences is the incorrect framing.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @danlistensto @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

      the issue is that we aren't good enough at knowing what the consequences of actions will be. virtue ethics is an attempt align decisions with traits that have a historical pattern of success.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

      Successful consequences

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

      no, that's not what I mean, and this is not a good conversation. sorry to have wasted your time.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

      Sorry you see it as a waste. I agree completely with your previous characterization: historical patterns of success are what justify endorsing virtues.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

      I see it as a waste because you attempted to reduce legitimate alternative positions into special cases of your own position. If you attempt to understand a different thing in terms of something you already understand, that's an analogy, at best. Really it's just a trick.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

      Not trying to reduce you to anything, seriously sorry

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

      I said "ends they tend to foster", you said "historical patterns". Somehow you see an important space between these positions.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
      Replying to @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

      ok. sorry too. trying to be more charitable. yes, I see a very important distinction between pattern recognition and expectation of results. It's deserving of a longer discussion than Twitter is good for though.

      9:59 PM - 26 Dec 2017
      • 2 Likes
      • Julia Galef Ryan Reece
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

          Agreed, I hope to understand the difference better

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

          Not trying to be further antagonist, but being someone who works in physics and machine learning, I see no separation between pattern recognition and expectation of results.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @juliagalef

          Humans aren't computers. Culture isn't a quantitative optimization problem.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @danlistensto @juliagalef

          Thanks for clarifying. We further disagree.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

          For the former, I'd get lost in biology and just say: they are. For the later, first, I'd say: why not?

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        7. Ryan Reece‏ @RyanDavidReece 26 Dec 2017
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

          Then l'd try to reframe progressivism and morality as clearly optimizing something

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Stuart Valentine‏ @VipassanaBoy 27 Dec 2017
          Replying to @RyanDavidReece @danlistensto @juliagalef

          Interesting discussion 👍 My 2 pennies - if new info came to light, that what was thought a virtue was leading to previously unknown but clearly bad consequences.... it stops being a virtue, just like that. Preferences for particular consequences are always the key to ethics.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. End of conversation

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