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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Psychedelics lend themselves to creating and destroying cultural containers. I have difficulty imagining a cultural container psychedelics couldn’t melt. (save cultural containers that proscribe their use —I wonder if this is how placebo sacraments came to dominate).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
      Replying to @delysis @PereGrimmer

      Not endorsing this for the U.S. but the Native American Curch, Uiao de Vegetal, and traditional Andean shamanism seem like stable containers. I can imagine containers that are more compatible with U.S. culture being able to hold it for us.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Oct 30
      Replying to @danlistensto @delysis

      I agree, I've propounded similar. Will take time for that type of tradition to emerge and stabilize. Something to look forward to!

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
      Replying to @PereGrimmer @danlistensto

      If metastatic containers count, we have many that work for a lot of people: burns, tours, raves, therapy methodologies, cults, psych societies, academic research, medical trials, flow dojos, yoga aya circles, etc. None seem remotely resistant to malignant narcissism.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
      Replying to @delysis @PereGrimmer

      there's boomers in all of them

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Boomer narcissism is bad, but their run is ending. I fear the childcare-by-AI-psuedoslave narcissism that will be with us for the rest of our lives. Psychedelic imprinting on AI psuedoslaves is a similar liability for adults. Psychs induce child-like gullibility. Ads lie.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
      Replying to @delysis @PereGrimmer

      psychedelics manifest what is already present in the mind of the user. that so many become child-like in their suggestibility is a statement about the user's existing proclivities. you're probably right that it's extremely common in Western culture though.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      I don’t buy that the suggestibility under psychedelics is a western cultural artifact: its also seen and relied upon in Andean and Bwiti shamanic practice.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
      Replying to @delysis @PereGrimmer

      very curious which specific suggestions Westerners are vulnerable to vs. Andean or Bwiti people. my intuition is that there is very little overlap in those sets.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Plenty of westerners go into a jungle and come out believing implausible Andean and Bwiti claims. Or take DMT and believe they were talking to aliens. I know some of them personally —grounded people who acquired very niche beliefs. Same can happen w/o drugs, too -see Evangelicals

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
      Replying to @delysis @PereGrimmer

      that's called belief tourism. often, we find what we're looking for.

      4:06 PM - 30 Oct 2018
      • 1 Like
      • Derek
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
          Replying to @danlistensto @delysis @PereGrimmer

          you're right, though, to point out that hard skepticism crumbles in the scouring light of the psychedelic experience. a cultural container ought to modulate what beliefs a person retains afterwards though.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
          Replying to @danlistensto @delysis @PereGrimmer

          Westerner takes on a Bwiti mytheme after being exposed to it by a Bwiti shaman. The mytheme is a reality in Bwiti culture and the psychedelic experience allows the Westerner to, for just one day, feel like they're immersed in it. It re-enchants the world.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 30
          Replying to @danlistensto @delysis @PereGrimmer

          what mythemes should Westerners use in our own cultural container for psychedelics? I find the traditional Judaeo-Christian canon to be sorely lacking. A fully disenchanted corpse that I'd rather not reanimate. Where do we go from here?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 31
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          I love that question, and I don’t know. I suspect there is serviceable material in any belief system that can be mined, refined and operationalized —even Christianity, about which I’ve historically had a chip on my shoulder. The container I want is a few accepted rules, norms:

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 31
          Replying to @delysis @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          My desired container is simple: 1. Recognition that people in the grips of a mystical experience are in a precious and vulnerable state analogous to childhood, and 2. A taboo on introducing violence, ads, new beliefs, and new partners to people in that state.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        7. End of conversation
        1. Delysis‏ @delysis Oct 30
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          My point is that culture and ethnicity of origin doesn’t seem to me to modulate suggestibility much. I think happy-clappy evangelical traditions and LDS are good models here: bathing people in divine acceptance enables you to sell people on crazy bullshit on every continent.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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