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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Santiago Tórtora‏ @lordcataplanga Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

      That's a naive interpretation, like saying a Christian CoC only alienates Satanists and New Atheist edgelords. Sure, it alienates them a lot, but also alienates lots of regular people a little. It might be worth the cost, but it is a cost.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    2. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @lordcataplanga @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

      can you elaborate on that? I think there is a nontrivial cost to overreaching CoC statements that, eg, explicitly state that they'll only punish certain kinds of racism, but I'm not sure how this case would qualify.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    3.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @lordcataplanga @danlistensto

      I think it's what Dan said about finding the whole cluster of attitudes and norms offputting

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga @danlistensto

      It seems like the secular equivalent of freaking out because you see someone wearing a turban and you think that foreshadows the immediate imposition of sharia law. That's valid if there's a bunch of them in pickups w/ AK's (analogy left as exercise for reader), but usually not

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      well, no, I don't think that's a fair analogy at all. the fact is we have at least some observed behavior of CoCs being used in a divisive and destructive fashion. it's not a case of mistaken identity to associate those pushing CoCs with those abusing CoCs for political games.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

      obviously its not a 1-for-1 relationship. there are those advocating for CoCs who are absolutely not going to abuse them. how small of a disruptive minor faction does it take to ruin things for everyone though? not very many it turns out.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      I'm not at all convinced there's enough to be suspicious of the whole project. Concern about collateral damage, sure. But as far as I can tell it's more of 'useful tool with some isolated cases of abuse' than 'pretext for abuse with the occasional reasonable use'

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      I'm a DevOps/SRE. I'm paid to think about systemic failure modes.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

      chilling effects are a real thing. the CoC is intended to chill certain types of speech (which is probably a good thing) but it's a blunt instrument and I'm far too Hobbesian in my worldview to trust any organization to be able to utilize this blunt instrument forever.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

      the really nasty things about written codes is that they become more and more difficult to dislodge and revise once adopted, even after clear problems emerge. orgs that don't yet have a problem due to their CoC are still operating with a risk codified into their org rules.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

      so the question remains: what is to be done in cases where some org members behave badly? I can't think of any better solutions that handling things on a case-by-case basis and stop LARPing justice court. There's no due process here. This isn't a court and nobody is a judge.

      12:41 PM - 22 Oct 2018
      • 3 Likes
      • Corn Woman Santiago Tórtora hikikomorphism🏝🛰️
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

          there's a pretty well known failure mode there, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness …

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
          Replying to @hikikomorphism @danlistensto @lordcataplanga

          Chiming back in — I think CoCs can be useful to set expectations and give community members a pathway for redress when they're wronged. But really the quality of the leadership is what determines whether the CoC will be a useful tool as intended, or a bludgeon

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        4. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @sonyaellenmann @danlistensto @lordcataplanga

          sure, nothing's a silver bullet. I just think that having _some_ CoC_ is generally better than leaving it up to opaque/informal hierarchies

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

          suppose there was a highly motivated and organized group of _right wing_ activists entering FOSS orgs and pressuring the orgs to adopt CoCs that subtly promoted their tribal value system. Would you feel the same way about it?

          1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
        6.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism @lordcataplanga

          I think you make a good point, but there's also an argument that the opposite happens with pushing against CoCs like, both sides weaponize the FL/OSS project in question regardless of whether they actually contribute to it (I am definitely guilty of this!)

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @sonyaellenmann @hikikomorphism @lordcataplanga

          right, pushing for and pushing against, it's the same culture war polarization we see everywhere. culture war armistice is the solution. CoCs are a weapon in the culture war. Time to put the weapons down.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann and

          expect to see more tradcon, rightwing encoded CoCs introduced in the future. SQLite is a relatively light-hearted example of it. There will be nastier ones coming.

          0 replies 1 retweet 8 likes
        9. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Santiago Tórtora‏ @lordcataplanga Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann

          That alleviates the symptom but if you dislike a CoC and manage to prevent its adoption, your cases would still have to be handled by the sort of people who thought the CoC was a good idea, only now they are not constrained by rules.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @lordcataplanga @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

          well put. I think maybe it's just the case that bad/malicious power structures can ruin anything

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation

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