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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @sonyaellenmann

      seems more like "we're letting you stick around, but we want to make sure to let you know that as non-Christians you're second class contributors" to me

      6 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann

      it does read that way but I think it was intentional because many prog/woke CoCs read that way as well except for a different religion

      1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
    3. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

      sure, but I don't really mind alienating people who think that requiring people to use other's preferred pronouns is equivalent to sharia law. I get that that's how some people feel, but understanding a mindset doesn't mean you need to think it's valid.

      6 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Santiago Tórtora‏ @lordcataplanga Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

      That's a naive interpretation, like saying a Christian CoC only alienates Satanists and New Atheist edgelords. Sure, it alienates them a lot, but also alienates lots of regular people a little. It might be worth the cost, but it is a cost.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    5. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @lordcataplanga @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

      can you elaborate on that? I think there is a nontrivial cost to overreaching CoC statements that, eg, explicitly state that they'll only punish certain kinds of racism, but I'm not sure how this case would qualify.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @lordcataplanga @danlistensto

      I think it's what Dan said about finding the whole cluster of attitudes and norms offputting

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    7. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga @danlistensto

      It seems like the secular equivalent of freaking out because you see someone wearing a turban and you think that foreshadows the immediate imposition of sharia law. That's valid if there's a bunch of them in pickups w/ AK's (analogy left as exercise for reader), but usually not

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      well, no, I don't think that's a fair analogy at all. the fact is we have at least some observed behavior of CoCs being used in a divisive and destructive fashion. it's not a case of mistaken identity to associate those pushing CoCs with those abusing CoCs for political games.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

      obviously its not a 1-for-1 relationship. there are those advocating for CoCs who are absolutely not going to abuse them. how small of a disruptive minor faction does it take to ruin things for everyone though? not very many it turns out.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
      Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      I'm not at all convinced there's enough to be suspicious of the whole project. Concern about collateral damage, sure. But as far as I can tell it's more of 'useful tool with some isolated cases of abuse' than 'pretext for abuse with the occasional reasonable use'

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
      Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

      I'm a DevOps/SRE. I'm paid to think about systemic failure modes.

      12:38 PM - 22 Oct 2018
      • 4 Likes
      • Jonathan Cast Chris Allen ΧΡ (Petrantoni) (NM & 🎚) Corn Woman UpGuard
      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

          chilling effects are a real thing. the CoC is intended to chill certain types of speech (which is probably a good thing) but it's a blunt instrument and I'm far too Hobbesian in my worldview to trust any organization to be able to utilize this blunt instrument forever.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

          the really nasty things about written codes is that they become more and more difficult to dislodge and revise once adopted, even after clear problems emerge. orgs that don't yet have a problem due to their CoC are still operating with a risk codified into their org rules.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

          so the question remains: what is to be done in cases where some org members behave badly? I can't think of any better solutions that handling things on a case-by-case basis and stop LARPing justice court. There's no due process here. This isn't a court and nobody is a judge.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        5. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

          there's a pretty well known failure mode there, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessness …

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        6.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
          Replying to @hikikomorphism @danlistensto @lordcataplanga

          Chiming back in — I think CoCs can be useful to set expectations and give community members a pathway for redress when they're wronged. But really the quality of the leadership is what determines whether the CoC will be a useful tool as intended, or a bludgeon

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        7. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @sonyaellenmann @danlistensto @lordcataplanga

          sure, nothing's a silver bullet. I just think that having _some_ CoC_ is generally better than leaving it up to opaque/informal hierarchies

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 22
          Replying to @hikikomorphism @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

          suppose there was a highly motivated and organized group of _right wing_ activists entering FOSS orgs and pressuring the orgs to adopt CoCs that subtly promoted their tribal value system. Would you feel the same way about it?

          1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
        9.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism @lordcataplanga

          I think you make a good point, but there's also an argument that the opposite happens with pushing against CoCs like, both sides weaponize the FL/OSS project in question regardless of whether they actually contribute to it (I am definitely guilty of this!)

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. 2 more replies
        1. Paul E  🖤 ✖️‏ @palecur Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @hikikomorphism and

          so's my therapist :( :( :(

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. hikikomorphism 🏝 🛰️‏ @hikikomorphism Oct 22
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann @lordcataplanga

          like I said elsewhere, this seems like a fully general argument that could be applied to any moderation or rule-enforcement mechanism. In which case, sure, human systems are messy and can't be fully reduced to code.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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