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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      Hmm.. Saruman at least appears to be making choices. I didn't pick Sauron because he's more like a situation than a character. Also because he's the most enslaved to the ring. Saruman seemed... Allied, but not whammied. He tried to sell Gandalf on alliance now, betray later.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      Gandalf literally told Saruman: "the ring knows only one master and it isn't you, buddy" Saruman was attempting to usurp Sauron and thought he could get away with it. A delusion Sauron allowed him to cultivate because it made him short-term useful.

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    3. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      Well, Saruman made some strategic errors, for sure. I just don't think <his will was enslaved by Sauron> is correct. It's hard to say how much control Sauron had over Saruman, because it's all off-screen. I tend to think it's low, with <I can always destroy him> as a backup.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      in the historical analogy to WW2 it's roughly approximating the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact, where Sauron is Hitler and Saruman is Stalin. Tolkien doesn't portray Saruman as literally enslaved, but he's totally being played and his actions are highly constrained.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      I don't buy the LOTR=WW2 analogy theory. If you just mean it's a comparable non-agression pact, sure. I'm not sure where Saruman is constrained though? He raises his own armies, generically engineers his own orcs, and masterminds his own war campaign.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      I mean, "the author is dead -Barthes" but it was definitely Tolkien's intent and design. The books are a long form allegory about WW2. he is constrained in that once he became corrupted and militarized he had no way out and no way forward. his loss was an inevitable conclusion.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

      his best case scenario was acting as a vanguard invasion force and then getting betrayed by Sauron and overrun by the superior forces of Mordor attacking from the rear. his worst case scenario is just losing to hobbits and shit lol.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      I feel like, if not for an Ent uprising, Saruman would have taken Rohan and held a reasonable and strategically valuable kingdom. If he did, Sauron would have won at Minas Tirith, and Saruman would have been a semiindependent vassal state. A decent bet.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      it was an intelligence failure on his part though. the Ents were already enraged and needed minimal coaxing to mobilize. Saruman was just completely oblivious to the situation cuz he was a scrub. his entire plan relied upon recruiting Gandalf. single point of failure.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

      semi-independent vassal state is also a non-entity under Sauron global domination. he doesn't share power. Sauron would have turned on him as soon as it was convenient.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

      there is direct evidence of this and Saruman should have known better! all 9 of the Nazgul were originally the kings of "semi-independent vassal states" that Sauron corrupted and then absorbed/conquered.

      1:51 PM - 16 Oct 2018
      • 5 Likes
      • Paul Mc Daniel Klein ⚡🔌 interelectrocutorion ⛈️💡 Corn Woman
      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          It's not a great plan. But <fight a conventional war against Sauron's armies> is also a terrible plan. Saruman made his bet for the best option he could foresee. Ring found + king returned + ring destroyed is just so unlikely.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

          yes yes! this is why I'm saying Saruman was constrained and that his actions were all ultimately in the service of Sauron. He had no road to success, only various modes of failure all of which benefited the true lord of the rings one way or another.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          I guess the freedom to fight a losing war against an overwhelmingly superior foe is not a super great amount of freedom. But maybe more than any other character? Most LOTR characters have limited ability to change their situation. Saruman had a lot and used it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

          Sam, Merry, and Pippin have the most personal agency of any of the main characters of the story.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

          their own personal involvement ends up being the critical difference-maker in all of those pivotal situations. Sam carries Frodo. Pippin mobilizes the Ents. Merry is critical in restoring Aragorn's regency in Gondor.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        7. Gianfranco Lanzio  🏄‏ @gianlanzio Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

          amazing discussion guys, the things you find on Twitter

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. End of conversation

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