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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Oct 16

      Which character (not too minor) would you say has the MOST freedom of action/true agency in the following stories? (respond for ones you've read/watched obviously) Lord of the Rings Harry Potter Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Game of Thrones

      23 replies 3 retweets 14 likes
    2. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @vgr

      LOTR: Saruman HP: Voldemort HHGG: Slartibartfast All villains who enforce their will on the world around than and don't give a damn what others think. Maybe this illustrates the power of social sanction? (I mostly didn't read the other replies before answering.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      arguably Saruman's will is enslaved to Saurons due to corruption experienced via the compromised Palantir network

      3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      Hmm.. Saruman at least appears to be making choices. I didn't pick Sauron because he's more like a situation than a character. Also because he's the most enslaved to the ring. Saruman seemed... Allied, but not whammied. He tried to sell Gandalf on alliance now, betray later.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      Gandalf literally told Saruman: "the ring knows only one master and it isn't you, buddy" Saruman was attempting to usurp Sauron and thought he could get away with it. A delusion Sauron allowed him to cultivate because it made him short-term useful.

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    6. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      Well, Saruman made some strategic errors, for sure. I just don't think <his will was enslaved by Sauron> is correct. It's hard to say how much control Sauron had over Saruman, because it's all off-screen. I tend to think it's low, with <I can always destroy him> as a backup.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      in the historical analogy to WW2 it's roughly approximating the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact, where Sauron is Hitler and Saruman is Stalin. Tolkien doesn't portray Saruman as literally enslaved, but he's totally being played and his actions are highly constrained.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
      Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

      I don't buy the LOTR=WW2 analogy theory. If you just mean it's a comparable non-agression pact, sure. I'm not sure where Saruman is constrained though? He raises his own armies, generically engineers his own orcs, and masterminds his own war campaign.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
      Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

      I mean, "the author is dead -Barthes" but it was definitely Tolkien's intent and design. The books are a long form allegory about WW2. he is constrained in that once he became corrupted and militarized he had no way out and no way forward. his loss was an inevitable conclusion.

      1:40 PM - 16 Oct 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • Paul Mc ⚡🔌 interelectrocutorion ⛈️💡
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

          his best case scenario was acting as a vanguard invasion force and then getting betrayed by Sauron and overrun by the superior forces of Mordor attacking from the rear. his worst case scenario is just losing to hobbits and shit lol.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          I feel like, if not for an Ent uprising, Saruman would have taken Rohan and held a reasonable and strategically valuable kingdom. If he did, Sauron would have won at Minas Tirith, and Saruman would have been a semiindependent vassal state. A decent bet.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

          it was an intelligence failure on his part though. the Ents were already enraged and needed minimal coaxing to mobilize. Saruman was just completely oblivious to the situation cuz he was a scrub. his entire plan relied upon recruiting Gandalf. single point of failure.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

          semi-independent vassal state is also a non-entity under Sauron global domination. he doesn't share power. Sauron would have turned on him as soon as it was convenient.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @WomanCorn @vgr

          there is direct evidence of this and Saruman should have known better! all 9 of the Nazgul were originally the kings of "semi-independent vassal states" that Sauron corrupted and then absorbed/conquered.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        7. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          It's not a great plan. But <fight a conventional war against Sauron's armies> is also a terrible plan. Saruman made his bet for the best option he could foresee. Ring found + king returned + ring destroyed is just so unlikely.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Oct 16
          Replying to @WomanCorn @vgr

          yes yes! this is why I'm saying Saruman was constrained and that his actions were all ultimately in the service of Sauron. He had no road to success, only various modes of failure all of which benefited the true lord of the rings one way or another.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          I guess the freedom to fight a losing war against an overwhelmingly superior foe is not a super great amount of freedom. But maybe more than any other character? Most LOTR characters have limited ability to change their situation. Saruman had a lot and used it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. 3 more replies
        1. Corn Woman‏ @WomanCorn Oct 16
          Replying to @danlistensto @vgr

          But Tolkien disclaimed the WW2 allegory specifically, and in scathing terms! You need serious death of the author to claim it in the first place!

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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