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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Empiricism is a system for truth-generation requiring belief, a value of "truth" doesn't have meaning without a truth-generation system attached: this is the end-result of postmodern work. Efficiency is a property of a system & can be optimized for. What even is utility anyway?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      contextually limited utility means that you have solved relevant problems for people you care about (yourself, principally, perhaps others) with the available resources. empiricism is a method that utilizes verification of observable experience to confirm or falsify beliefs.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      How is a "relevant problem" determined? The effectiveness of "empiricism the method" is buttressed by "empiricism the belief". Calling empiricism purely a method with no required underlying axiomatic set is a common bait-and-switch.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      relevance is a preference judgment, though some preferences become outright needs if survival/subsistence is on the line. empiricism "the belief" is too boring to be worth discussing. yes, I really do believe that senses and instruments can verify reality. I am not a solipsist.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Interestingly, the idea that peoples' preference judgments are worth listening to is a somewhat non-standard idea these days. The reason to question "empiricism the belief" is not so much "maybe science is fake" so much as "when/for whom might empirical truth be bad?"

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      But if "truth" is only a moral/personal and not an ethical/society-wide value, then it is indeed boring to question the use and validity of empirical truth.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      I disagree. moral and personal judgments are more salient and more relevant to individuals than ethical and social judgments. in order to have an ethical society we must also have moral individuals.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      This claim reads like a more deeply-held "core value" to me than the ones you listed above.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      it's just a rephrasing.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      I do not see how "moral & personal judgments are more relevant to individuals than ethical & social judgments" is necessarily a rephrasing of "truth and utility".

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      an individual MUST know the truth and know what relevant actions to take in order to be considered as possessing "good morals", in my view. truth and utility are necessary (and often sufficient) for good morals.

      11:10 AM - 13 Aug 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • simpolism Derek
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          Are good morals necessary for everyone? Or merely for certain people?

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          by what standard? like, what proportion of individuals need to be morally good in order for society to have a chance at being ethical and harmonious? not sure, not 100% but perhaps some kind of super-majority. that's the intuition anyway.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          I was thinking more along the lines of whether an internalized moral code is more necessary for someone with power over others vs someone with no power. e.g. do we demand the homeless be as moral as the lawmakers?

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          not necessary to achieve the station of lawmaker in any case. is it necessary to be morally good to be a good lawmaker? I would say so. we have very few good lawmakers and very few good laws.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          what does it mean to be a good homeless person? i dunno but I think we can distinguish between good and bad homeless people based on their behavior. I won't claim that merely being good is sufficient to prevent homelessness in some situations. that's orthogonal.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          Is it not more important societally to have lawmakers with strongly internalized moral codes than homeless people with strongly internalized moral codes? (funnily enough, I expect that the US government would be better if we replaced our lawmakers with the homeless)

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          yes indeed it is, hence my prior statement about the need for individual morality as a pre-requisite for ethical society. but homeless people impact the lives of others too, through different means. still don't want to have rapist cannibal homeless dudes running around.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism

          Maybe if they burst out into song from time to time.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          societies necessarily entail intersubjectivity and conflicting goals so we can't apply the same rubric to generate good morality on the mass scale. we can only hope that individuals behaving morally will cohere into a harmonious society except possibly at the margins.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism

          I think in practice what we see is seclusion into various shifting and abstractly defined bits of territory, each based on predictions as to others' responses. It is an interesting process.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

          accurate prediction algorithm = harmony ?

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. End of conversation

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