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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism

      1/I'm open to compromise on it. But that reminds me of another leg of this rant: what makes values 'core'? It doesn't seem to be that they are the values which are tested most and remain stable -- rather, it often seems that the core values are tested least, or just never tested.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      2/So I'm inclined to suspect "core values" are just the values that happen not to have been tested longest in the person's memory. Once the person has incentive to betray the value, they probably will, and then they'll have new core values.

      4 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      values are incentive-aligned beliefs.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      a lot of politics is competition to change incentives in alignment with beliefs, thereby creating values.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      it sincerely doesn't help that many beliefs are unfounded bordering on (or sometimes actually) delusional

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      good governance ought to be incentives aligned in support of true and useful beliefs

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      > true and useful my guess is you hold core values of empiricism and efficiency

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      empiricism is a method, not a value. efficiency is an outcome, not a value. my core values are for truth and utility (contextually limited)

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    9. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

      Empiricism is a system for truth-generation requiring belief, a value of "truth" doesn't have meaning without a truth-generation system attached: this is the end-result of postmodern work. Efficiency is a property of a system & can be optimized for. What even is utility anyway?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      contextually limited utility means that you have solved relevant problems for people you care about (yourself, principally, perhaps others) with the available resources. empiricism is a method that utilizes verification of observable experience to confirm or falsify beliefs.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism @PereGrimmer

      when I say my core value is for truth I mean I shape my behavior to incorporate methods that can eliminate delusive beliefs and confirm true beliefs.

      10:52 AM - 13 Aug 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • simpolism Derek
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          What if some "delusive beliefs" are good?

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          define good? see, this rhetorical strategy is easy to do.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          One possible reading: what if holding delusive beliefs allows you to better satisfy your core values as expressed in action?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          is satisfaction of your core values what we care about? I mentioned context-limited utility as a value because it focuses on solving real problems instead of just attaining a kind of spiritual satisfaction (whatever that might mean).

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          Yes, I was defining "good" as "whatever satisfies one's core values." However, what if we only solve real problems for the spiritual satisfaction (or escape from boredom, I guess), and it's simply *extra* spiritually satisfying if the problems are real?

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          when I'm hungry my problem is I need to eat nourishing food. if I don't eat nourishing food I will become sick and eventually die. it doesn't matter how spiritually satisfying I find eating to be. case in point: anorexics are spiritually repulsed by eating but they still have to.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism

          This presumes anorexics value living over not eating. Not all have!

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

          well there's the rub. if it's a method of suicide it seems to be one of the most exotic and excruciating ones you could come up with. there is such a thing as a recovered anorexic. I don't understand it on a deep level though.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. End of conversation

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