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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13

      I hear stuff like, "I'll never compromise on my core values." But why not? What's going to happen if you do? Is the Gaia God of Personal Spirituality going to frown on you? And what proof are inflexible "values," really, against the turbulent eddies of time and experience?

      18 replies 19 retweets 158 likes
    2. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer

      You will be exposed as an ideologically untrustworthy person who compromises on their core values.

      1 reply 0 retweets 18 likes
    3. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism

      It seems such a point of pride to have strong fixed beliefs unalterable by future circumstance. I take the point that there's a signaling and coalition building effect, but it seems irrational to me as an egotist. Then again, talk is cheap; saying ain't doing.

      1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
    4. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer

      It appears you are refusing to compromise on your core value of having no core values.

      2 replies 1 retweet 24 likes
    5. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
      Replying to @simpolism

      1/I'm open to compromise on it. But that reminds me of another leg of this rant: what makes values 'core'? It doesn't seem to be that they are the values which are tested most and remain stable -- rather, it often seems that the core values are tested least, or just never tested.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      2/So I'm inclined to suspect "core values" are just the values that happen not to have been tested longest in the person's memory. Once the person has incentive to betray the value, they probably will, and then they'll have new core values.

      4 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      values are incentive-aligned beliefs.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
      Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

      a lot of politics is competition to change incentives in alignment with beliefs, thereby creating values.

      10:27 AM - 13 Aug 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • simpolism Derek
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism

          That's true. That's much of the point of laws and norms -- alter marginal incentives, alter marginal behavior, alter marginal values. Maybe the benefit of inflexible core values, then, is that if everyone truly had them, there'd be no benefit to politics, and it'd be abandoned.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @simpolism

          inflexible core values is a signal that you can be relied upon not to defect in iterated political games. it's supposed to be helpful for coalition building. the problem is usually upstream of that, i.e. delusional beliefs.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

          it sincerely doesn't help that many beliefs are unfounded bordering on (or sometimes actually) delusional

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @simpolism

          good governance ought to be incentives aligned in support of true and useful beliefs

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          > true and useful my guess is you hold core values of empiricism and efficiency

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          empiricism is a method, not a value. efficiency is an outcome, not a value. my core values are for truth and utility (contextually limited)

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        6. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          Empiricism is a system for truth-generation requiring belief, a value of "truth" doesn't have meaning without a truth-generation system attached: this is the end-result of postmodern work. Efficiency is a property of a system & can be optimized for. What even is utility anyway?

          3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          contextually limited utility means that you have solved relevant problems for people you care about (yourself, principally, perhaps others) with the available resources. empiricism is a method that utilizes verification of observable experience to confirm or falsify beliefs.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @simpolism @PereGrimmer

          when I say my core value is for truth I mean I shape my behavior to incorporate methods that can eliminate delusive beliefs and confirm true beliefs.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        9. simpolism‏ @simpolism Aug 13
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer

          What if some "delusive beliefs" are good?

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 7 more replies

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