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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1. Chaos‏ @chaosprime Aug 6

      if mean, think about it: if you were a middle class American, would you rather believe your comfort were the product of blood-soaked global resource extraction, or your just reward for not saying "fuck" when there are kids around and only cheating on your spouse when you're drunk

      8 replies 25 retweets 112 likes
    2. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @chaosprime

      discomfiting those with moral certitude ought to work better than it does. unfortunately that very certitude is a shield against the efforts of others to make one reflect on the system of the world.

      1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
    3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @danlistensto @chaosprime

      it's a weak proxy, but the trangressiveness of saying fuck around kids (actually around parents of young kids, the kids don't care) can be justified in that it at least produces the desired emotional response if for the wrong reasons.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    4. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
      Replying to @danlistensto @chaosprime

      The other day I watched Trigun for the first time & it occurs to me that what's notable about that show is essentially the way it paints moral certitude as morally wrong.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    5. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
      Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

      The reason Vash is good is that he puts more effort into finding creative ways to maximize positive outcomes than anybody else, while the antagonist is basically only an antagonist because he has a rigid set of heuristics based on illusory moral clarity.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    6. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
      Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

      Maybe the appropriate way to disrupt illusory moral clarity is to demonstrate that there are ways to achieve ideal ends & that thinking more carefully is actually worthwhile? (i.e., showing a third option)

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @enkiv2 @chaosprime

      Knives is a fanatical genocidal nihilist. He has a kind of certitude in his beliefs but I hesitate to describe fanatical genocidal nihilism as a kind of morality. He seems to believe that there are NO humans who deserve to live and has no criteria for distinguishing them.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

      Vash is his opposite and also displays a kind of certitude in his belief that ALL sentient beings deserve to live. Vash avoids killing to a fault, as shown by the negative consequences of his mercy on many occasions in the series.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

      it's the human characters in the series that show moral ambiguity and are ultimately the ones with a workable philosophy. Meryl and Milly representing utilitarianism, considering the costs and consequences of actions. Wolfwood representing the Sin/Salvation dialectic as a human.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
      Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

      Where Vash refuses to kill and Knives refuses to save, Wolfwood is the human who is burdened with choice and free will. He must carefully consider ever occasion where he kills and must learn to live with the consequences of his willful actions.

      9:40 AM - 6 Aug 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • 🦇 Frankie / Cesca 🦇 Derek
      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          Idk dude I identify with Legato -- his skills at manipulation are so evolved he does not know who he is and just longs for death by a superior being.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          Legato doesn't have skill at manipulation. It's an unearned power, the result of literally a deal with the devil. Legato is Knives' pawn and he knows it. He longs for the release of death because his continued existence is an affront against free will.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          I don't think his powers came from Knives, though, he follows Knives because his powers don't work on plants. But agreed, he wants to die because he's neither human nor inhuman and his existence calls humanity into question.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          manga and anime differ here in significant ways. in the anime version Knives is responsible for Legato's powers by grafting Vash's amputed arm onto Legato and imbuing him with a fraction of the demigod-like power of the humanoid Plants.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @danlistensto @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          I see it as ultimately about something like environmentalism. What are our duties towards inferiors? Knives is the Nietzsche espie; Vash believes in harmony. Much of the tension has to do with the interplay between timeless ideals and time bound decision making in the real...

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @danlistensto and

          ... world. Hence Wolfwood and Chapel the Evergreen are not truly opposed -- rather, Chapel, like a father, wants to teach Wolfwood that you have to make time bound decisions, even if someone is left worse off. The clock is ticking! Wolfwood learns the lesson, but infects...

          2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
        4. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @danlistensto @chaosprime

          I absolutely agree! But, Vash's attitude is basically that it's worthwhile to sacrifice yourself a little more in order to find a way to do the greater good. Delaying tactics are morally good because you can use that time to do things that seem impossible.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

          That may be but he could have prevented a lot of death if he'd just crushed Knives's head when they were kids! His childishness is the source of his virtue but it caused evil.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @danlistensto @chaosprime

          And in the end, he chose to 'save' Knives instead of killing him because he rejects the idea that you can't have both. He's almost always found a way to have both, simply because he considered it and valued it when others didn't, and that was worthwhile for him.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Derek‏ @PereGrimmer Aug 6
          Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

          A darker read on the show is that his power allows him to get away with dumb decisions, thus proving he is beyond conventional morality (Knives's thesis), and he elected a foolish and dangerous decision by letting Knives live.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Aug 6
          Replying to @PereGrimmer @enkiv2 @chaosprime

          I think that's the correct and implied authorial reading actually. Meryl and Milly are literally there to inform Vash of the consequences of his decisions and how destructive they are on everyone else even if Vash seems immune to harm from mere humans.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @danlistensto @PereGrimmer @chaosprime

          The reason I don't think that's the correct reading is that the ending reaffirms Vash's position. Vash's behavior is an extreme that's impossible for humans, sure, and he definitely does damage despite trying to minimize it, but he would do more if he was less careful.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 2 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @danlistensto @chaosprime

          I wouldn't call Knives a nihilist. He has a clear moral system. He sees himself as a representative of a victim race (the plants), and he sees killing any human as justified because humans take energy that he considers the birthright of the plants.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

          Knives justifies all human death on the grounds that "killing the spider to save the butterfly" is always justified. Vash has faith that there's always a way to save both and minimize suffering. Until Knives uses Legato to invent a pathological counterexample he's been right.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

          Vash isn't a practical role model. He is inhumanly extreme. But, the theme of the show is that being a little more like Vash is probably better for the world. Because humans aren't able to be as extreme as him, we max out at Wolfwood level.

          1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
        5. Brutalist Teletype Bakeneko‏ @enkiv2 Aug 6
          Replying to @enkiv2 @danlistensto @chaosprime

          (This is the point where I pull out Grant Morrison's thing on Superman. Basically, Vash is an unrealistic extreme of moral self-criticism, and because he's so extreme, he becomes useful as an archetype.)

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation

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