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danlistensto's profile
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop
@danlistensto

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Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop

@danlistensto

Moloch's janitor

Joined August 2014

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    1.  🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀‏Verified account @sonyaellenmann Jun 23

       🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀 Retweeted

      I agree with others that this thread demonstrates the failure case of cultural relativism. True: They didn't think what they were doing was wrong, and intent is part of how we evaluate moral culpability. False: We shouldn't use our contemporary standards to judge these practices. https://twitter.com/lizzie_wade/status/1010178681334050822 …

       🤖 Sonya Mann  🎀 added,

      This Tweet is unavailable.
      20 replies 24 retweets 89 likes
    2. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Jun 23
      Replying to @sonyaellenmann

      Obviously, there are moral standards by which human sacrifice is ok. The problem arises when someone tries to construe humanist moral standards (antiracism etc.) to justify human sacrifice as acceptable "in the right context". There exist different, incompatible moral standards.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Jun 23
      Replying to @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

      It seems to come down to a Kegan 5 discussion. Can you "unsee" your values, and understand that values are constructed rather than intrinsic (nothing has value by itself), that they are chosen, and how picking different values contributes to different social regulation?

      2 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
      Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Jun 23
      Replying to @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

      cultural/moral relativism of that severity is a great example of what David calls "the stage 4.5 nihilist trap"

      10:00 AM - 23 Jun 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • 🤖 Sonya Mann 🎀 Failed Buddhist
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Jun 23
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

          This is not nihilism. Nihilists don't try to resolve interpretations of history by imposing a "conversation" on an imaginary audience of morally synchronized peers. That's solid Kegan 3.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Jun 23
          Replying to @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

          I disagree. Moral relativism is absolutely nihilism. Constructing an apologia for a brutal practice from a different culture on some level requires you to believe that *nothing* is sufficient to form a universal moral standard.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        4. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Jun 23
          Replying to @danlistensto @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

          The Kegan 3 position is like that of the original conquistadors. They had an overwhelmingly strong culturally endorsed imperative to do what they were doing so they never questioned the ethics of it. Modern cultural anthropology is an attempt to review this at Kegan 4.

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Jun 23
          Replying to @danlistensto @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

          Applying systematized objectivity of some kind is the stage 4 strategy. Attempting to criticize that as with this kind of relativist pomo deconstructive stance is the 4.5 nihilsm trap. Deriving a coherent meta-ethics is the goal of Kegan 5, and she didn't get there.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Jun 23
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

          Hehe, I think that you interpret Kegan as some kind of moral ladder, instead of the number of layers in the self model. That is a trap in itself.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Dan listens to rain falling on the rooftop‏ @danlistensto Jun 23
          Replying to @Plinz @sonyaellenmann

          I interpret as a hierarchical system (a ladder, yes) but not a kind of moral ladder. Just that certain types of ethical reasoning are associated with each stage.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Joscha Bach‏ @Plinz Jun 23
          Replying to @danlistensto @sonyaellenmann

          "Conversation" is a giveaway for considering ethics to be dependent on her hivemind, which means that she is not even self authoring. (Developing meta ethics sounds more like David's personal project, btw...)

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        9. End of conversation

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