whereas psychosis is not quite so particular in its qualities? I'm not a psychiatrist. I feel like at least in common language the word is used to describe a lot of different kinds of abnormal consciousness. There may be some overlap with mystical consciousness.
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Replying to @danlistensto @0knaomi
I don't think it's just a matter of emotional valence though. You could, if you wanted to, decide to label the mystical experience a variety of psychosis but that doesn't like a helpful classification.
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Replying to @danlistensto
It's not apparent to me how "noetic quality" is different from having a delusional belief, except for the term "delusion" being impolite. And ineffability ("struggling to find words") is not uncommon in psychosis as well. Same with passivity, really. Oneness seems like an
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Replying to @0K_ultra @danlistensto
interesting distinguishing feature to consider, perhaps? Point being, as far as I can tell there are quite a few overlaps between transient psychotic episode (which is a thing) and whatever is referred to as "mystical experience"
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I agree. there's overlap. the original psychiatric model for LSD induced mystical experiences was labeled "psychoto-mimetic" and that wasn't obviously incorrect at the time (and is maybe only subtly incorrect). I do think they're different things though.
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Replying to @danlistensto
I am willing to entertain the hypothesis that the difference goes deeper than "psychosis feels bad and has bad outcomes as registered by Trusted Third Party, ME feels good and has good outcomes as registered by Trusted Third Party", but I'm not quite sure what it would be.
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this source characterizes psychosis of having these qualities and I can see how you could produce a mapping from those to the qualities of ME. 1. delusions 2. hallucinations 3. disorganized speech 4. disorganized or catatonic behavior http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/516/Psychosis.html …
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Replying to @danlistensto @0knaomi
but you don't get symmetry really. noetic experiences and delusions might look like a mapping but the way a person behaves afterwards and integrates the experience is vastly different in practice. a noetic experience tends to produce a belief similar to "empirically validated"
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Replying to @danlistensto @0knaomi
whereas a delusion tends to be quite groundless. the mystic will often say "I can't rationallly account for this in the same I can't rationally account for the feeling of solidity of the table" but they accept the reality of it as a ground truth.
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Replying to @danlistensto @0knaomi
delusions are rarely like that, right? tend towards extravagance and the characteristic "disorganized" features of psychosis. so I think that's more than just emotional valence but a qualitative difference of the phenomenon as experienced by the person.
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the ones that don't seem to map at all though are "encounters with True Self" and "unity of opposites". maybe those are cultural priming effects but they are reproduced in many different cultures in many different historical eras, so I think it's interesting whatever it is.
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Replying to @danlistensto
I think "oneness/unity of opposites" / True Self thing are interesting, but also generally hard to parse for "outsider" (hallucinations and "noetic experience of knowing sorta-apriori" are much easier to imagine!)
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Replying to @0K_ultra @danlistensto
I guess at a minimum we might be able to say that ME seems to involve a lot of introspectively perceived anomalies, and it is not immediately obvious how does, say, a transient psychosis with relatively well structured delusion compare.
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