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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

Programmer at http://mollyrocket.com  on @molly1935 (https://molly1935.com ) and host of @handmade_hero (https://handmadehero.org )

Joined March 2009
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    Previous Tweet
    1. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @cmuratori The ZFS people seem smart so I'm wondering if I'm just not getting why it's not a problem for the uberblocks to be contiguous.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Won Chun ‏@won3d 17 Oct 2013

      @cmuratori I'm guessing uberblocks are replicated. And they are probably not striped because syncs across disks aren't transactional.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

      @won3d @cmuratori (2) from same link: only *1* uberblock is actually the current valid root, you don't care what's in the other 127 anyway

      0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @nothings @won3d Yes but that's not relevant here. Since the 128 are stored together, if that sector/pagegoes they will all go.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

      @cmuratori @won3d But only one of them is the current root. The other 127 are stale roots, so you don't care if you lose them.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @nothings @won3d No, that is incorrect. They are all "valid roots" due to COW, so in case the latest one had a bad write, you are OK.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

      @cmuratori @won3d Obviously that doesn't work once free space gets recycled. But you're right: http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/solaris/ZFSMetadataRecovery …

      0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @nothings @won3d It actually does work even when free space gets recycled, just not for the entire tree. So you still get _some_ protection.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @nothings @won3d You'll only lose the part that actually got recycled, rather than the whole drive which is what would happen otherwise.

      0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

      @cmuratori @won3d It depends on what got recycled. If something high in the tree got recycled... again, see the link I gave for more details

      0 retweets 0 likes
      Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

      @nothings @won3d It would have to be something high in the tree _on all 127 other uberblocks_.

      2:51 PM - 17 Oct 2013
      0 retweets 0 likes
        1. Chris Siebenmann ‏@thatcks 17 Oct 2013

          @cmuratori @nothings @won3d Note: high level metadata is always changing on ZFS because of copy-on-write plus pointers to lower-level data.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        2. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d Yes and this worries me a bit, separate from the question I asked earlier about uberblocks in contiguous arrays.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        3. View other replies
        4. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d Specifically, because you're always rewriting the uberblocks to the same addresses, you have a "superpage" problem

          0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d Ie., 8K may be the write size for an SSD, but the _clear_ size is actually like half a meg or something.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d So, I think this only maps well to an SSD if the firmware happens to do a full 8K page mapping.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d If they actually do mapping only at the half meg level, then you will thrash the fuck out of the drive, won't you?

          0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d You'll be doing half-meg writes _times four_ to rewrite the uberblock arrays every time. Makes me very nervous.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @thatcks @nothings @won3d But maybe all SSDs do 8K-block level mapping, so it doesn't matter? I don't know. I need more firmware docs :P

          0 retweets 0 likes
        10. Show more
        1. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

          @cmuratori @won3d As you go back further, ever more stuff will have been recycled. According to the link, ZFS won't even try recovering > 3.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        2. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

          @cmuratori @won3d Anyway, I have no idea why you're drilling down into this since (1) should have answered your question satisfactorily.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @nothings @won3d I'm not drilling down into it, I was correcting your erroneous statement about not needing the other 127 blocks :)

          0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

          Sean Barrett Retweeted Sean Barrett

          @cmuratori @won3d Dude, how many tweets ago did I say "you're right"?!? https://twitter.com/nothings/status/390956570609057792 … (7)

          Sean Barrett added,

          Sean Barrett @nothings
          @cmuratori @won3d Obviously that doesn't work once free space gets recycled. But you're right: http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/solaris/ZFSMetadataRecovery …
          0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @nothings @won3d In the same tweet you said I was right about the early statement, you made _another_ erroneous statement :P

          0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Sean Barrett ‏@nothings 17 Oct 2013

          @cmuratori @won3d Dude, I said "that doesn't work ONCE [the relevant] FREE SPACE gets recycled". This is true & described in detail at link!

          0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @nothings @won3d That bracket insert was not in the original, and that's what we spent the next tweets talking about.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        8. View other replies
        9. Casey Muratori ‏@cmuratori 17 Oct 2013

          @nothings @won3d And "relevant" in this case is very specific. It has to be _very_ high in the tree before you wouldn't care _at all_.

          0 retweets 0 likes
        10. Show more

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