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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      I'd be surprised if GDocs or other collab systems were putting slow storage into the hot loop! Do you have reason to think they are? Seems like you'd want provable consistency for document editing, whereas with a game, it seems inevitable that there will be some inconsistency

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Nadagast

      I have no idea how gdocs is implemented, but it’s quite possible it works by each user independently reading and writing to a generic central database server. This seems to be a very web way to think about things (and was the background assumption behind the on-stream question).

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    3. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      Ahh, yeah that's how I'd guess it works too (though perhaps multiple servers around the world?) I'd still not expect them to finish storage in the hot loop (ie prevent you from interacting til the storage step finishes). But maybe I'm misunderstanding

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Nadagast

      But, the db is going to be set up to guarantee a lot of things that would not otherwise be necessary, thus, be a lot slower than necessary.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 14
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

      Collaborative editors are a bad example here because they were (at least until "CRDTs" became the fad) built on the "operational transform" model, which means they run off-line and sync, effectively. So the server side does not need to be in the edit loop.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    6. Mark Nadal‏ @marknadal Oct 14
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

      Hey Jonathan & Casey, I and @martinkl build CRDTs for a living, & even convinced ex-Google-Wave engineer @josephgentle to switch from OT to CRDTs. I'd love to help/podcast/explain CRDTs if you need! Especially the best one for live games. https://gun.eco/distributed/matters.html …

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    7. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 14
      Replying to @marknadal @Jonathan_Blow and

      Personally I don't think either are very good so you're on your own there :)

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 14
      Replying to @cmuratori @marknadal and

      I have no experience with these, but they look like general abstractions intended to be used in situations where you need to go the other way, and get specific, to achieve good performance.

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    9. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 14
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @marknadal and

      That is precisely what they are.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 15
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      What's the alternative for collaborative editing? Assuming you want to support offline editing and not have conflicts?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 15
      Replying to @Nadagast @Jonathan_Blow and

      You write the code that actually does whatever synchronization is optimal for the user experience. This is the same thing as "entity component systems". CRDTs and ECS are ways of making generic systems that do a generally poor job of something, but which can be reused.

      12:16 AM - 15 Oct 2021
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 15
          Replying to @cmuratori @Nadagast and

          They are (almost?) never going to be what you actually want, but if you don't want or don't have time to do something better, then you might reach for one or the other to save you time. CRDTs are much less well worked-out thus far compared to ECSes, though, in my opinion.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 15
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

          IME real world CRDT systems do specialize to what they're building, the primitives in examples are just examples. How would you do collaboration that supports offline that doesn't diverge without in essence using the principles of CRDTs?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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