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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12

      Jonathan Blow Retweeted Casey Muratori

      This is likely to be an interesting discussion. We had a talk on my stream about how Apex Legends is a way harder concurrent data manipulation problem than Google Docs, but somehow people think it’s the opposite, or Apex Legends does not even register in one’s brain whenhttps://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1448078107378860035 …

      Jonathan Blow added,

      Casey Muratori @cmuratori
      OK that was clearly a "yes" :) I will do a database discussion live, maybe tonight 8PM? https://www.twitch.tv/handmade_hero/schedule?segmentID=92acda70-52b3-4627-83ce-bb70e974b47b … https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1448057732490141699 …
      5 replies 9 retweets 136 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12

      thinking about how performant multiuser document editing “should” be. Unfortunately I’m about to get on a plane, so will miss Casey’s discussion. (And I am not saying he will have a similar view, just, it is a pretty interesting topic how databases are misused now).

      1 reply 2 retweets 56 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      Do you have a link to the video? Interested to watch. I think they're pretty different problems with unique difficulties (offline and consistency requirements are different, for example)

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Nadagast

      It’s just randomly on Twitch somewhere. Video games need consistency as much as anything else, otherwise players immediately learn to exploit the hole. Re other requirements, the key is to put slow stuff like long-term storability on the *back* end, that stuff flows into after

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    5. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

      the interactive loop, so as not to slow down the loop.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    6. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      I'd be surprised if GDocs or other collab systems were putting slow storage into the hot loop! Do you have reason to think they are? Seems like you'd want provable consistency for document editing, whereas with a game, it seems inevitable that there will be some inconsistency

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Nadagast

      I have no idea how gdocs is implemented, but it’s quite possible it works by each user independently reading and writing to a generic central database server. This seems to be a very web way to think about things (and was the background assumption behind the on-stream question).

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    8. Garrett‏ @Nadagast Oct 12
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow

      Ahh, yeah that's how I'd guess it works too (though perhaps multiple servers around the world?) I'd still not expect them to finish storage in the hot loop (ie prevent you from interacting til the storage step finishes). But maybe I'm misunderstanding

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Oct 12
      Replying to @Nadagast

      But, the db is going to be set up to guarantee a lot of things that would not otherwise be necessary, thus, be a lot slower than necessary.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 14
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

      Collaborative editors are a bad example here because they were (at least until "CRDTs" became the fad) built on the "operational transform" model, which means they run off-line and sync, effectively. So the server side does not need to be in the edit loop.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Oct 14
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

      So, although I have not looked at the code, it is very likely the case that if you encounter slowness on Google Docs or something, it is because the client is slow. Like even if they weren't collaborative at all, that is just as fast as their client code runs. Because "web".

      3:41 AM - 14 Oct 2021
      • 1 Retweet
      • 17 Likes
      • Toideng Jarvis Carroll Matt Stavola rm: can’t stat / Ivan Echevarria Cristi Croitor 💾 Anurag Anand Cian Mac Suibhne🇮🇪 🇵🇸 Sebastian Kassai
      3 replies 1 retweet 17 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Adel‏ @meoyawn Oct 14
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

          sure, "web", but I'm very grateful to just visit a URL and get stuff done without installing anything

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Omid Ghavami Zeitooni‏ @odyssjii Oct 14
          Replying to @meoyawn @cmuratori and

          That doesn't technically require "web" as we know it. The system could just as well had been that you go to a URL and it downloads a compiled program och runs it. Now with WASM they are attempting to "fix" it in post. Could have been done better if done properly from the start.

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Bartosz Adamczewski‏ @badamczewski01 Oct 14
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

          I can't speak for GDocs but I did work in a couple places with such editors and the problem was that it was the bare minimum to make the feature work and move to something else which meant: - Huge and bloated exchange format - Sync entire docs - Slow clients - Complicated models

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Justin Hachemeister‏ @JHachemeister Oct 14
          Replying to @badamczewski01 @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow

          pic.twitter.com/qONPmba9ms

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. Jarvis Carroll‏ @SpiveeWorks Oct 14
          Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow @Nadagast

          Ah but remember, if the model is to run offline and sync, then synchronising is the bottleneck! So who cares if the client is slow. 🧠

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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