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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jul 11
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @meglio and

      Re Steven's point about the cost of branching, I would say that the whole idea of branching assumes you are in an environment where productivity is low relative to the size of the code base. As productivity rises, branches make increasingly less sense.

      4 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
    2. Alastair Houghton‏ @al45tair Jul 11
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @meglio and

      I’d add to all of this, branches *are* useful if you need to maintain multiple live versions of your software. That’s typically not the case for games, web things or (most) apps, but enterprise software, operating systems and so on do have that problem.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jul 11
      Replying to @al45tair @meglio and

      What do you mean? All high-end games do this as the platforms we ship on are all very different and we need to support them post-release. Branches would be an awful way to do that.

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. Alastair Houghton‏ @al45tair Jul 11
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @meglio and

      For enterprise software and operating systems, you can’t release updates containing unexpected new code. You pretty much have to branch. Feature flags just aren’t sufficient. (Reality can be quite complicated; e.g. some sub projects might be able to use feature flags.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Steven Hutton‏ @StevenBHutton Jul 11
      Replying to @al45tair @Jonathan_Blow and

      What's "unexpected" code? If the argument is that OS's and enterprise software is too complicated to handle without branches I mean, yeah... shit is at least an order of magnitude too complicated to handle WITH branches which is kind of the problem all over.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Steven Hutton‏ @StevenBHutton Jul 11
      Replying to @StevenBHutton @al45tair and

      I think this approach can be done to effect with large teams on large games where I have some experience. But I have no experience working on huge OS projects. Maybe they HAVE to branch but I'm skeptical.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Alastair Houghton‏ @al45tair Jul 11
      Replying to @StevenBHutton @Jonathan_Blow and

      And as for OS projects, there’s usually a whole other layer over and above “normal” VC. You can see this with the Open Source Linux distos - they have package managers and each version of their distribution has different sets of packages. All have to work together.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jul 11
      Replying to @al45tair @StevenBHutton and

      Those package managers all look to me like a giant disaster, and the first order of business should be to eliminate all of it. So if you are using that as an example of how to do things well, I am not riding that train.

      2 replies 1 retweet 21 likes
    9. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Jul 11
      Replying to @Jonathan_Blow @al45tair and

      Separately, there was no acknowledgement or rectifying of failure of terrible ideas that were pushed specifically to avoid things like this. So, COM is still here, which was supposed to "solve" the versioning problem, but we _also_ now have package managers. It's truly insane.

      2 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
    10. Octave‏ @moskitoc_ Jul 11
      Replying to @cmuratori @Jonathan_Blow and

      What sane ways to deal with versioning and dependencies are you aware of ? It seems to me that the problem itself is unavoidable if you want reusable pieces software that can evolve, but I don't know of environments where it's not a nightmare to deal with.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Jul 11
      Replying to @moskitoc_ @Jonathan_Blow and

      Just don't. Basically none of the things that are done today with package managers, containers, etc. actually need to be done. A statically linked executable would have worked, it's just people no longer even know how to build such a thing.

      1:37 PM - 11 Jul 2021
      • 2 Retweets
      • 39 Likes
      • Rytis C0rneli0delr4nch0 Karan Joisher intrixmeister Najdan Tomić bc1n0 Farhod Miralimov Wisam
      4 replies 2 retweets 39 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Jul 11
          Replying to @cmuratori @moskitoc_ and

          It's one thing to talk about how we would deal with a deeply interconnected set of systems that really do work together. But 99% of the time, we are just seeing completely stand-alone things that interface with _nothing_, and they are simply made dependent by bad design.

          3 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
        3. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jul 11
          Replying to @cmuratori @moskitoc_ and

          I agree with "just don't". The modern software landscape is dominated by decisions made by people who did a very bad job of cost/benefit analysis (or, usually, no analysis -- they just assume everything is all benefit, so, send it!)

          1 reply 0 retweets 20 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. Alastair Houghton‏ @al45tair Jul 11
          Replying to @cmuratori @moskitoc_ and

          Maybe worth mentioning that this is actually what things like Go and Rust build *by default* for exactly that reason.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Federico Bett‏ @fede_cba Jul 11
          Replying to @cmuratori @moskitoc_ and

          The problem with that approach is what happens when for example there is a security issue in the library. If you statically link you need to release a new version. This happened already with openssl for example.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Jonathan Blow‏ @Jonathan_Blow Jul 11
          Replying to @fede_cba @cmuratori and

          This is solely due to operating system implementation details that would be easily rectifiable if anybody fucking cared.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Show replies

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