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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. sonderweg nach pankow‏ @sudo_lindenberg Mar 2

      sonderweg nach pankow Retweeted Adam Gordon Bell  🤓

      This was another good episode, but I always get frustrated with the weird ontology of self-perceived low-level programmers who think the only "real" thing is assembly language as written in the 80s and distainfully dismiss high-level programming concepts as mere "abstractions"https://twitter.com/adamgordonbell/status/1366373423832838149 …

      sonderweg nach pankow added,

      Adam Gordon Bell  🤓 @adamgordonbell
      Episode #62 of @corecursive is out: Video Game Developer @cmuratori says he has a better way to teach software development and game programming. https://corecursive.com/062-game-programming/ …
      2 replies 2 retweets 4 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Adam Gordon Bell  🤓‏ @adamgordonbell Mar 2
      Replying to @sudo_lindenberg

      Thanks for listening! I think I agree with you, and I found Casey's view a bit shocking at first. I think that shows that on some pendulum of 'concepts are first class' vs 'hardware is first class' teaching has drifted hard to one side and Casey is trying to push it back.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. sonderweg nach pankow‏ @sudo_lindenberg Mar 2
      Replying to @adamgordonbell

      Yeah I sympathize with the approach in a lot of ways, and as a teaching principle it obviously is necessary, but it's easy to get carried away with it as well

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      Although we did not get to this in the interview, what I would actually say is different than either of these. Concepts are actually critical, but the problem is that people are not evaluating them against the machine, so they have no idea which concepts work and which do not.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    5. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      This is why I use the term "first class" and "second class". The rules of the machine you program on are "first class" - they cannot be broken, and are true by default. Anything you put on top of that is second class - it is only true or valuable if you can demonstrate that.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      This is why we routinely have modern software that is literally thousands of times slower than the underlying machine is capable of. It is simply due to people using extraordinarily expensive combinations of second-class concepts they have not evaluated.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      The situation is especially difficult because some second-class concepts can safely be used in some circumstances, and not in others, but most programmers today don't have the knowledge necessary to correctly make that decision.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      So the primary thing people like me are arguing for is that people need to learn things like assembly language, not because they need to write code in it, but because if they don't understand it, they don't really understand the high-level code either. They just think they do.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
      Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

      In summary, we are saying programmers should learn how the machine works, and evaluate their higher-level constructs against the resulting machine behavior those constructs produce. Nobody is arguing that everything has to be hand-coded in asm. I certainly don't do that myself :)

      3:22 AM - 3 Mar 2021
      • 6 Likes
      • Nicholas George The Sandvich Maker Adam Gordon Bell 🤓 Gonçalo Santos Ivan Braidi
      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        1. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori Mar 3
          Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg @adamgordonbell

          Separately, I also think high-level constructs need to be rigorously analyzed even just as constructs. Many "high-level abstractions" I see advocated actually produce buggier, more voluminous, and less maintainable code. This has nothing to do with the machine, but is also bad.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. Adam Gordon Bell  🤓‏ @adamgordonbell Mar 3
          Replying to @cmuratori @sudo_lindenberg

          I feel like a future long-form discussion is needed. I think the people who use the phrase "A sufficiently smart compiler" ... (which occasionally includes me) and people whose browser autocompletes g to 'http://godbolt.org ' need to talk more.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. sonderweg nach pankow‏ @sudo_lindenberg Mar 3
          Replying to @adamgordonbell @cmuratori

          I'd like to bring VMs into discussion too! Even if you use D8 to "godbolt" your JS, you can't actually know at what level of optimization it will be executed, etc. Very difficult to know what "getting closer to the metal" would be in this very common scenario!

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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