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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Andrew Kelley‏ @andy_kelley 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Lokathor and

      (1) not true for embedded and other OS's (2) the hot path is going to be using recycled memory from an allocator in which case the memory is undefined, not 0

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @andy_kelley @cmuratori and

      I think the point of disagreement with the two philosophies is fundamentally what the purpose of a type system is for and what you think it can possibly do.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      For you @andy_kelley, you want to ensure safety through the type system as much as possible. Which means being explicit on an individual unit. The reason I said "make the zero value useful" is to emphasize the aspect of values rather than types.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      The main aspect of what @cmuratori calls ZII are the following (I might be wrong): It is how [modern] computers work the most efficiently (zero memory is the default), and thus not having to initialize explicitly manually is a lot faster.

      3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Ada Weird‏ @Ada_weird 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      Except oftentimes when you allocate you don't get zero'd memory. You get junk data that you have to clear to zero anyways. Not that clearing to zero is a slow operation usually but it's not the most efficient way to do things in a lot of cases.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @Ada_weird @TheGingerBill and

      Programming discussions on Twitter are just so depressing. Clearing to zero is literally free in any case where you would actually have done anything with the data. If you weren't going to do anything with the data, then you couldn't have initialized it to a valid value either.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

      Not only is clearing to zero free in that case, but _it's also free even if you then initialize it_. The front end eats xors of the same register with itself. They don't even make it to an execution port.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    8. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

      Twitter is a poor format for any discussion of any complexity. This discussion's format is better expressed in speech, or at least a long form email.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @Ada_weird and

      Also I feel like people have to actually learn about CPUs before arguing about something low-level like this. And you need to talk about what the basis is - like are we talking about a modern OS+CPU (ARM, x64, Windows, iOS, whatever) or are we talking about a 6502, etc.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    10. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

      Yeah. The "gotchas" people bring up are "what about embedded systems"? I'm not dealing with them 99.99% of the time. Virtually everything I use is "modern" in terms of CPU, GPU, and Kernel (desktop, phone, tablet, my watch even).

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @Ada_weird and

      Also I fundamentally disagree with the idea of justifying a language design decision for high-power, high-speed CPUs based on pointing to something low-power and low-speed CPUs. If it's a different enough domain that it changes the decision, that should be a different language.

      11:26 AM - 19 Sep 2020
      • 4 Likes
      • SuperJer's tԝitter Ryan Saunderson Ivan Braidi
      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Andrew Kelley‏ @andy_kelley 19 Sep 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @TheGingerBill and

          Consider for a moment, that I actually may be a smart person, and have come up with a way to write reusable code that is actually correct codegen for both high power high speed CPUs and also low power low speed CPUs. please let's look at actual examples in godbolt or something

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        3. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
          Replying to @andy_kelley @TheGingerBill and

          Going on Twitter and talking about programming was the worse decision I've made since the last time I went on Twitter to talk about programming. So just assume whatever you think is right is right and I'll resume not talking about programming on Twitter, everyone wins :)

          2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

          I 100% agree. I'm actually for _more_ programming languages, each for different domains. Programming Languages are not "Highlander".

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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