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cmuratori's profile
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
Casey Muratori
@cmuratori

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Casey Muratori

@cmuratori

I'm worried that the baby thinks people can't change.

Seattle
caseymuratori.com
Joined March 2009

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    1. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 18 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @andy_kelley and

      I think you are confusing ZII with "clear everything to zero but otherwise the program is the same", which is not ZII at all.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Andrew Kelley‏ @andy_kelley 18 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Lokathor and

      ZII cannot be used with all data types. As a simple example consider a pointer which is never supposed to be null - which is many if not most pointers. Zero initializing such a pointer gives it the wrong value.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @andy_kelley @Lokathor and

      "Pointer that can't be null" is not a data type, it's a data type plus a condition. ZII obviously cannot be "used with all conditions" because the definition of ZII is that it is telling you that zero is the default state of everything. But that's the point of it!

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @andy_kelley and

      The point of ZII is that it is the right condition to use, because app memory is always zero on allocation, and thus by definition if you structure the program this way, you have no overhead while still having initialization determinism.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Andrew Kelley‏ @andy_kelley 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Lokathor and

      (1) not true for embedded and other OS's (2) the hot path is going to be using recycled memory from an allocator in which case the memory is undefined, not 0

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @andy_kelley @cmuratori and

      I think the point of disagreement with the two philosophies is fundamentally what the purpose of a type system is for and what you think it can possibly do.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      For you @andy_kelley, you want to ensure safety through the type system as much as possible. Which means being explicit on an individual unit. The reason I said "make the zero value useful" is to emphasize the aspect of values rather than types.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      The main aspect of what @cmuratori calls ZII are the following (I might be wrong): It is how [modern] computers work the most efficiently (zero memory is the default), and thus not having to initialize explicitly manually is a lot faster.

      3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    9. Ada Weird‏ @Ada_weird 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @TheGingerBill @andy_kelley and

      Except oftentimes when you allocate you don't get zero'd memory. You get junk data that you have to clear to zero anyways. Not that clearing to zero is a slow operation usually but it's not the most efficient way to do things in a lot of cases.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @Ada_weird @TheGingerBill and

      Programming discussions on Twitter are just so depressing. Clearing to zero is literally free in any case where you would actually have done anything with the data. If you weren't going to do anything with the data, then you couldn't have initialized it to a valid value either.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
      Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

      Not only is clearing to zero free in that case, but _it's also free even if you then initialize it_. The front end eats xors of the same register with itself. They don't even make it to an execution port.

      11:13 AM - 19 Sep 2020
      • 4 Likes
      • SuperJer's tԝitter Ivan Braidi Garrett Hale pragmascript
      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. gingerBill‏ @TheGingerBill 19 Sep 2020
          Replying to @cmuratori @Ada_weird and

          Twitter is a poor format for any discussion of any complexity. This discussion's format is better expressed in speech, or at least a long form email.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Casey Muratori‏ @cmuratori 19 Sep 2020
          Replying to @TheGingerBill @Ada_weird and

          Also I feel like people have to actually learn about CPUs before arguing about something low-level like this. And you need to talk about what the basis is - like are we talking about a modern OS+CPU (ARM, x64, Windows, iOS, whatever) or are we talking about a 6502, etc.

          2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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